NSK Youtube Basho Archive

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,060]

I couldn't find a thread about this (other than a petition in 2014 asking the same) but NSK has opened a basho video archive on their youtube channel.

By subscribing to their youtube channel (990yen/mo, $8.99/mo in US) you get access to the archive.

Archived basho have all makuuchi torikumi presented in a 'Kintamayama style' digest (someone should start charging a consulting fee...). Each video has timeline bookmarks for each bout.

Right now only 1981 Hatsu basho and 1964 Hatsu basho are in the archive. I would guess digging out the tapes, digitizing them, and notating them properly takes some amount of work. Even though this pales in comparison to the sumodb being linked up to individual videos (which has been thrashed with takedowns), and may be the reason why the recent DMCA wave has occurred, I will hold on complaining for a bit.

 

[Churaumi 688]

If they put up more basho, I'm interested.

[Eikokurai 3,418]

If the archive builds to a decent size, I might be persuaded to get a month and then see if I can download as many of the videos as possible into a hard drive. That price is too high to pay every month.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,060]

8 hours ago, Churaumi said:

If they put up more basho, I'm interested.

They will continue to upload the basho from 1964 and 1981 throughout the year. For a single basho, the upload of 15 days will happen over two months (I guess the netflix style is still too exotic).

1964 - because of Olympics

1981 - Maybe the rise of Chiyonofuji

After that, who knows what will happen, maybe depends on subscriber count.

The way youtube subscriptions work is that if they make any other video membership only you'll also get that. Not sure if they plan on anything though.

[themistyseas 192]

While it is undoubtedly excellent to have more archive content available, I wonder how this will impact (if it does at all), the NSK's own "tanimachi" subscription which they offer as a part of their own official app for $4.99 a month. That subscription makes every match available for viewing individually. It seems they've already set the bar.

Many folks have mentioned the fees that the kyokai wants to charge for video footage of a basho are not competitive with most sports - streaming is a volume game and it's odd that something this limited (even with the expectation that content will expand enormously) is enough for people to part with what it costs to pay for Netflix every month.

If they're going to charge these kinds of rates, I'd have maybe liked to have seen the investment in their own app. I'd probably be happy to make an increase of something from the $5 I pay into the app's "tanimachi" subscription in order to have it available on (for example) Apple TV, with interactive and/or subtitled content. For a YouTube channel product, it seems hard to justify.

[Churaumi 688]

We are also talking about the Kyokai here, and business sense isn't their strong suit.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,060]

3 hours ago, themistyseas said:

While it is undoubtedly excellent to have more archive content available, I wonder how this will impact (if it does at all), the NSK's own "tanimachi" subscription which they offer as a part of their own official app for $4.99 a month. That subscription makes every match available for viewing individually. It seems they've already set the bar.

Many folks have mentioned the fees that the kyokai wants to charge for video footage of a basho are not competitive with most sports - streaming is a volume game and it's odd that something this limited (even with the expectation that content will expand enormously) is enough for people to part with what it costs to pay for Netflix every month.

If they're going to charge these kinds of rates, I'd have maybe liked to have seen the investment in their own app. I'd probably be happy to make an increase of something from the $5 I pay into the app's "tanimachi" subscription in order to have it available on (for example) Apple TV, with interactive and/or subtitled content. For a YouTube channel product, it seems hard to justify.

I doubt the basho available on the youtube archive is going to overlap what's available on the app at any point. It seems to be like a koenkai-lite offering. Besides, the 1964 basho was making them $0 before and now some people will subscribe.

For me personally, I have a hard time sitting through lengthy broadcasts of old sporting events - too much new stuff generated constantly these days. In the US we had a TV channel, ESPN classic, to show old tapes but this was converted over to show live sports pretty quickly so I don't think I'm alone here.

[themistyseas 192]

12 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I doubt the basho available on the youtube archive is going to overlap what's available on the app at any point. It seems to be like a koenkai-lite offering. Besides, the 1964 basho was making them $0 before and now some people will subscribe.

For me personally, I have a hard time sitting through lengthy broadcasts of old sporting events - too much new stuff generated constantly these days. In the US we had a TV channel, ESPN classic, to show old tapes but this was converted over to show live sports pretty quickly so I don't think I'm alone here.

I agree fully which is why the strategy hit me as a little odd. Rationally, you'd ask why make two mediocre products when you can make one really good one with the same content (or at least offer a consistent experience across platforms - you may want a YouTube experience and I may want a connected TV experience but what's important is we can get the same experience and that it's also good). IMHO** it would be great to just edit all of the historic basho each into their own little 25-30 minute highlight reel of the best matches and/or yusho race moments. That seems like the kind of thing that could act as a time capsule of the event, capturing all of the important moments and introducing new viewers to favourites of days gone by, without being overbearing.

Obviously we also want to preserve those "inconsequential" Day 3 matches between low maegashira as well, but it seems like this could be supercharged into an actually really quite great service with not a huge amount of effort on their behalf, though as Churaumi says...

46 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

We are also talking about the Kyokai here, and business sense isn't their strong suit.

... And that's what happens when the team dictating your business interests are not experts and are pulled from an extremely narrow pool. :(

** of course they won't do this and I'm not suggesting they are even considering such a thing

[Asashosakari 16,979]

3 hours ago, themistyseas said:

IMHO** it would be great to just edit all of the historic basho each into their own little 25-30 minute highlight reel of the best matches and/or yusho race moments.

That strikes me as a pretty incoherent way to summarize a basho, particularly when it's a tournament old enough that the average viewer won't be familiar with the "cast". I doubt a pure highlight reel of a yusho race even needs 10 minutes for most tournaments, since most matches that aren't about the eventual winner will just be a distraction, as will almost any early-basho bout that was fought with (at the time) low stakes. Conversely, a video that actually provides a complete "relive the storylines" summary of the basho would need to be much, much longer than half an hour, at least if it's primarily composed of bout footage rather than just voice-over snippets describing the storylines.

And "best matches" compilations arguably don't need to be done on a per-basho basis at all. That's the kind of thing that makes sense for a just-completed tournament, in a "this is the best of what you've just been watching" way, but not for long gone basho where there's no context for the presented matches anyway. Those are better served via themed compilations, IMHO. "Best throws", "biggest upsets" or what-have-you.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 16,979]

Video-wise, the best period we ever had was the araibira days, when the integration of his video feed with the DB allowed for targeted rewatching of old matches, by whatever selection method any individual fan had in mind. That kind of thing is honestly the only product I'd be prepared to pay money for, as far as historical content goes. A collection of daily digest videos is a nice basis, but I'm with Tsuchinoninjin in that I would have a hard time watching them as-is for the most part. But if, say, they were indexed so that e.g. I could quickly rewatch all of Ichinojo's Aki 2014 makuuchi debut when the mood strikes, or all the Hakuho-Asashoryu matches, without having to hunt for them through tons of individual digest videos, that's a whole different ballgame.

(Of course the biggest benefit of the araibira archives was that it wasn't limited just to makuuchi, but that's a whole other conversation.)

Edited February 6, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Benevolance 2,302]

Asashosakari said just what I would have said, except I'd have included a not-so-sly dig at Mitakeumi, too. 

[Benevolance 2,302]

Probably something along the lines of: if I wanted to watch Mitakeumi's ozeki runs, but only the ones from 2018 to 2026... 

[Yamanashi 3,050]

3 hours ago, Benevolance said:

Probably something along the lines of: if I wanted to watch Mitakeumi's ozeki runs, but only the ones from 2018 to 2026... 

I'll bet Mitakeumi's Mom sounds like this, too: "Hisashi, when are you going to reach Ozeki and make your parents proud?"

"Hi, Mom, thanks for coming over.  Should I get a bigger apartment?  I don't have anywhere to put my second Yusho portrait."

Edited February 7, 2021 by Yamanashi

[WAKATAKE 2,381]

10 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Video-wise, the best period we ever had was the araibira days, when the integration of his video feed with the DB allowed for targeted rewatching of old matches, by whatever selection method any individual fan had in mind. That kind of thing is honestly the only product I'd be prepared to pay money for, as far as historical content goes. A collection of daily digest videos is a nice basis, but I'm with Tsuchinoninjin in that I would have a hard time watching them as-is for the most part. But if, say, they were indexed so that e.g. I could quickly rewatch all of Ichinojo's Aki 2014 makuuchi debut when the mood strikes, or all the Hakuho-Asashoryu matches, without having to hunt for them through tons of individual digest videos, that's a whole different ballgame.

(Of course the biggest benefit of the araibira archives was that it wasn't limited just to makuuchi, but that's a whole other conversation.)

So far the best channel I have been able to find so far with older matches has been Sumo Paris, although most of those seem to focus on the Taka-Waka era. I do miss Araibira with all that he was able to do with his videos.

[themistyseas 192]

13 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Conversely, a video that actually provides a complete "relive the storylines" summary of the basho would need to be much, much longer than half an hour, at least if it's primarily composed of bout footage rather than just voice-over snippets describing the storylines

That's a fair point

The rub for me is that, if the big picture, I wonder if there's already been a better debate about what the product should be within this thread than probably will have been had by the people holding the keys to the content.

[Eikokurai 3,418]

About 18 months ago I started a little side project which I abandoned pretty quickly as life got in the way but which I’d like to return to. It was basically a sumo almanac with two-page reviews of basho (six-basho era only, for my sanity) summarizing the key storylines such as the yusho race, new makuuchi guys, new sanyaku, etc as well as interesting trivia about kimarite and whatever else I could find. I also intended to note any lower-division stuff worthy of attention like the debut of a future Yokozuna or something and to write in such a way that narratives that crossed basho would link together, e.g. mentioning the first record in an Ozeki run. It was entirely based on my analysis of stats on the sumo DB and whatever I could Google, but you’d be surprised how much you can write just about that. I even had to cut a lot of stuff to fit onto two pages. I did it for 1958 only before shelving it as the hours of research needed just for that one year made catching up to 2019 and beyond a daunting task (one year alone is 12 pages of writing). Anyway, to get to the point, I reckon the Kyokai could do something similar (and better) with basho videos, a good editor and some documentary-style narration. I’d pay for that.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Eikokurai

[Shinobi Steve 146]

I fall into the camp that loves old sports broadcasts. I spend lots of time watching old Formula 1 races and reading history about the races and drivers. I already spend lots of time reading about sumo history, so watching old basho would be wonderful for me. However, there needs to be a little effort made to make it user friendly for international fans. I don’t need (or expect) full English commentary, but at least an effort to write a short description in English would be wonderful. 

[Yamanashi 3,050]

The fact that some of the elite geek-level international Sumo fans (this Forum) are quibbling about what sophisticated features need to be in this service, and whether we'd pay for it, makes me doubtful that the NSK could provide such a service.  We have the fruit of decades of talented fans who have spend millions of person-hours on such things as sumodb, the daily digests of Kintamayama and others, the incredible Sumo A-Z, etc., etc.  All of this is free (or low cost).

But the Kyokai will have to hire professionals to curate the bouts, hire translators for English/French/Chinese (and good ones -- the gaijin are finicky).  Designing a site with the search features we fans want will be expensive, too.  They will almost certainly have to partner with NHK (who has in-house skill sets), as it would be too big a risk to take it on themselves.  IMHO, if NHK isn't interested, the Kyokai is sunk.

When the product comes out, will you buy it?  It's going to be very expensive at first, until they broaden the base.  Several of us have said "I'd pay for that", but the first patrons will be investing in the service (with no return on our investment except hoping it survives).

To my mind, there are a lot of hurdles to surmount before this becomes a sustainable enterprise.  However, I hope it works; then I'll decide if I'll pay for it.

[Churaumi 688]

I'm happy with what they put out on YouTube the other day. I'm just impatient for more.

[Asashosakari 16,979]

1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

The fact that some of the elite geek-level international Sumo fans (this Forum) are quibbling about what sophisticated features need to be in this service, and whether we'd pay for it, makes me doubtful that the NSK could provide such a service.

But that's always the problem with making historical archives available on a pay service - that kind of thing predominantly appeals to geek-level fans, with nostalgia folks probably the second-biggest (but also much more fickle) group. The big money can be made much more easily by tailoring your efforts to fans of your current product, where the "fan accessibility" barrier is much lower.* If you want to make money with your back catalogue, though, it needs to be presented in a way that your would-be customers actually find useful. And daily digests, while obviously the most pragmatic choice to start with, IMHO rank very low on the usefulness scale. Most people will either want something that presents a whole basho in a neat package, or individual bouts.

Or possibly the top choice would even be career retrospectives of individual rikishi or rivalries. But that's an even bigger production effort than the other two options.

* I'm sure the DB's usage stats would also indicate that the vast majority of accessed pages relate to recent tournaments and currently active rikishi.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,060]

While it wouldn't be a menu of bouts to click and watch ala sumodb, I wonder if they would have more success bundling these types of VOD access with koenkai memberships for various heya. That would make it easier to stomach larger yearly payments. But I guess there might be some sort of tax complication with this approach.

[Eikokurai 3,418]

We shouldn't forget the 'long tail' in all this. Digital platforms have made it possible to make small profits relatively easily and cheaply by reaching a globally distributed niche market. The Kyokai/NHK can do no more than simply dump its raw basho footage somewhere and make it available for a small fee. This lo-fi approach would cost them almost nothing (server space, basically) and turn what it is currently a dormant asset into something generating some revenue, no matter how small. That's probably the thinking behind the YT project. If even only 1000 people worldwide pay $8.99 for one month to view raw basho footage, that's nearly $9,000 of 'free' revenue they would otherwise not have taken. Anything more complicated and you need a business case to justify the investment of time, money and manpower, which reduces the likelihood of it ever happening. So as much as I'd like a properly edited digest of old basho, I guess it won't happen if the only economically viable option is a simple 'upload and charge for it' model.

[Akinomaki 35,585]

The core sumo fans, the elderly in Japan will pay that fee, especially in stay home and social distance times. Their kids will help them with the technical side of watching on YT on their smart TVs.

It's a service for them by the public interest corporation NSK.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Akinomaki

[Benevolance 2,302]

There is the series that araibira had linked to online briefly (Art of Sumo, I think?) that was just documentaries of various years of sumo. I think it was mostly from the 70s to 90s, but despite never having watched sumo in that era, I got a powerful feeling of nostaglia watching the videos. I think it helped that a lot of the players (Kaio, Kitanoumi, Chiyonofuji, Miyabiyama, Terao, etc) were still visible members of the kyokai. And it was fascinating to see the subtle ways in which the matches changed and evolved over the years. The videos also push something of a narrative, and the faster pace is more engaging for my kids, so the shows get regular viewing between basho. 

Anyway, suffice to say, I'd love to be able to buy and watch more. 

Personally, I think the Abema stream is excellent. I think if you subscribe to the premium Abema, you can watch archived Abema footage? But I've never been able to get a subscription as a dirty gaijin. Either that or Goeidou talked to his friends at Abema and I'm specifically blocked. 

[dada78641 863]

Frankly, what I want is just straight up full TV coverage without editing, scanned in high res and preferably on something with a higher encoding quality than Youtube. I know I'm never going to get that, maybe unless Japan has a sudden political shift and people realize "hey, if this was shot using public money, and the reels are being stored using public money, then why shouldn't it be public data?"

Part of why I'm saying that is, of course, because I'm an archivist and data hoarder, but still—you can't keep reels around forever. They eventually degrade. Whatever the NSK does, they should be digitizing all of this and storing it in high quality. In a way this should be easier to start offering on a paid service, because if you just publish entire uncut days of sumo you don't have to do any editing.

While we're at it, someone tell the NSK that when you stream something live, like a training session or an ozeki promotion speech, you should always record a clean local copy of it at the same time. So that when you're done, you have the actual high quality original as a file you can upload, rather than the only remaining copy being a poor quality stream that's constantly shifting in bitrate because you were broadcasting from someplace with poor wifi. If you don't then that's quality you permanently lose. You really don't want important historical moments to be permanently locked to 240p just because someone happened to be torrenting トラック野郎 at the same time.