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Jomangor

Ozeki Reranking confusion

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Could anyone please explain to me why in all the projections for the March 2021 Banzuke, Shodai is ranked higher than Asanoyama? They both ended 11-4, but Asanoyama won their head-to-head. Why doesn't that make him the highest ranked Ozeki for March 2021?

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14 minutes ago, Jomangor said:

Could anyone please explain to me why in all the projections for the March 2021 Banzuke, Shodai is ranked higher than Asanoyama? They both ended 11-4, but Asanoyama won their head-to-head. Why doesn't that make him the highest ranked Ozeki for March 2021?

Hi new member, thanks for asking. Because head-to-head is irrelevant. Shodai was ranked higher on the january banzuke, that's all that counts.

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1 hour ago, Benihana said:

Hi new member, thanks for asking. Because head-to-head is irrelevant. Shodai was ranked higher on the january banzuke, that's all that counts.

Yep, this!

If rikishi on the same sanyaku rank finish with the same amount of wins, their banzuke order is kept for the following basho. :-)

Edited by Koorifuu

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Head to head is a bigger factor in some sports than others.  In 2003 I stayed up all night to watch an internet broadcast of the Bermuda Bowl final, the world championship of bridge, the card game.  The US team trailed Italy by a considerable amount at the start of the final segment, then came back and won the match on the final deal.  Strangely, the conditions made the event a 22-team round robin qualifying eight to the quarterfinals, with the top teams choosing their opponents from the 5-8 seeds, and with a carryover based on their round-robin match result, which continued through all the knockout rounds.  The US team won the championship by an amount smaller than their carryover, but that carryover was only based on the US-Italy round-robin match.  Both teams played 21 matches against the same teams in the round-robin and the US team won the match against Italy, earning the carryover, but Italy finished first overall, outplaying the US team over the other 21 matches.  So the second overall team beat the first overall team in the final with a carryover they earned in one match, ignoring 42 others that the two teams played.  As far as I know, this whacko system still exists and is even mirrored in the Canadian championships.

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1 hour ago, Ichimawashi said:

Head to head is a bigger factor in some sports than others.  In 2003 I stayed up all night to watch an internet broadcast of the Bermuda Bowl final, the world championship of bridge, the card game.  The US team trailed Italy by a considerable amount at the start of the final segment, then came back and won the match on the final deal.  Strangely, the conditions made the event a 22-team round robin qualifying eight to the quarterfinals, with the top teams choosing their opponents from the 5-8 seeds, and with a carryover based on their round-robin match result, which continued through all the knockout rounds.  The US team won the championship by an amount smaller than their carryover, but that carryover was only based on the US-Italy round-robin match.  Both teams played 21 matches against the same teams in the round-robin and the US team won the match against Italy, earning the carryover, but Italy finished first overall, outplaying the US team over the other 21 matches.  So the second overall team beat the first overall team in the final with a carryover they earned in one match, ignoring 42 others that the two teams played.  As far as I know, this whacko system still exists and is even mirrored in the Canadian championships.

I would assume bridge players are used to weird rules, with the cooperate with your teammate but not too much rules.

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Just for completeness, yusho playoff results do have the power to switch the positions of two sanyaku rikishi who otherwise had the same rank and score.

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5 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Just for completeness, yusho playoff results do have the power to switch the positions of two sanyaku rikishi who otherwise had the same rank and score.

Is that because one of them won the tourney and the other didn't? If it's a 3 man playoff of A (East Sekiwake), B (West Sekiwake), and C (Komusubi, for the sake of argument), and C beats both A and B, but B beat A, do the rankings of B and A change, considering neither won the Yusho?

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6 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Just for completeness, yusho playoff results do have the power to switch the positions of two sanyaku rikishi who otherwise had the same rank and score.

The behaviour of the banzuke making committee on those cases is not consistent over time though, with multiple occurrences of both cases (switch and no switch) in the last 30 years.

 

1 hour ago, Jomangor said:

Is that because one of them won the tourney and the other didn't? If it's a 3 man playoff of A (East Sekiwake), B (West Sekiwake), and C (Komusubi, for the sake of argument), and C beats both A and B, but B beat A, do the rankings of B and A change, considering neither won the Yusho?

Caution, do not confuse the regulation bout and the playoff bout. In the general case, only the record on the regulation bouts (overall number of wins out of 15) count, and who beats who does not matter. Yusho playoff bouts are "out of the tournament" bouts that do not change the final count of wins and losses of the rikishi, but is only there to crown a tournament winner. In the unlikely case of a multiple rikishi same rank yusho playoff (it happened in the past), the result of the individual playoff bouts do not matter towards the establishment of the new ranking, only the winner of the playoff might (if the committee decides so) get a small bonus on the next ranking.

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9 hours ago, Nantonoyama said:

The behaviour of the banzuke making committee on those cases is not consistent over time though, with multiple occurrences of both cases (switch and no switch) in the last 30 years.

No, this was actually changed officially in September 1997 following some public commotion over Akebono not getting to be the East Yokozuna after his Natsu 1997 championship. Wikipedia indicates that complaints had come up every time that scenario had happened, but doesn't go into detail as to why that case was the one specifically that broke the camel's back and led to the change. (I'd blame it on the first-time involvement of a foreign yokozuna, but I was checking through the SML archives the other day, and it didn't appear to have come up there for discussion after the banzuke release at all. Maybe it was different with Japanese and Japan-based foreign fans, I dunno.)

All cases pre- and post-rule change:

1959.05: Y2e Wakanohana (-> Y1w) defeats Y1e Tochinishiki (-> Y1e) at 14-1
1963.07: O3e Kitabayama (-> O1w) defeats O1w Sadanoyama (-> O1e) at 13-2
1965.09: Y2e Kashiwado (-> Y1w) defeats Y1w Sadanoyama (-> Y1e) [+1 other] at 12-3
1971.01: Y1w Taiho (-> Y1w) defeats Y1e Tamanoumi (-> Y1e) at 14-1
1976.05: Yw Kitanoumi (-> Yw) defeats Ye Wajima (-> Ye) at 13-2
1988.03: Y2e Onokuni (-> Y1w) defeats Y1w Hokutoumi (-> Y1e) at 13-2
1989.07: Y2e Chiyonofuji (-> Y1w) defeats Y1e Hokutoumi (-> Y1e) at 12-3
1996.11: O1w Musashimaru (-> O1w) defeats O1e Wakanohana (-> O1e) and O2e Takanonami (-> O2e) [+2 others] at 11-4
1997.05: Yw Akebono (-> Yw) defeats Ye Takanohana (-> Ye) at 13-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2001.01: Y2e Takanohana (-> Ye) defeats Y1w Musashimaru (-> Yw) at 14-1
2002.01: O2w Tochiazuma (-> O1e) defeats O2e Chiyotaikai (-> O1w) at 13-2
2009.01: Yw Asashoryu (-> Ye) defeats Ye Hakuho (-> Yw) at 14-1
2009.09: Yw Asashoryu (-> Ye) defeats Ye Hakuho (-> Yw) at 14-1

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Excellent answers! But what would happen these days (keeping in mind the 1997 rule change) in my hypothetical scenario, where neither A nor B in a 3-man playoff take the Yusho, but the lower ranked wrestler beats the higher ranked wrestler?

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My understanding of that scenario is the same as Nantonoyama's in that the only distinction being made is between yusho and not-yusho. That's the only thing a playoff is meant to decide; all runner-ups are deemed to have finished with the same result, regardless of how they were eliminated from the playoff, so it would be very odd if the banzuke suddenly reflected something different.

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