March basho 2021

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

13 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

... and hence he [Terunofuji] is already "known" to be good and arguably ought not need to be tested in this way.

I disagree with this half sentence.The fact that only two* guys ever managed to get the repromotion the hard way shows that, yes, this test is useful, even though it might be next to impossible. And even the example of Miyabiyama, who was denied a repromotion with 34 wins, showed that a strict interpretation makes sense. Just look at his results straight after: Not Ozeki worthy.

*As Kaiketsu's first promotion (7-8; 12-3Y; 11-4J) was a bit banzuke tactical/political**, you could even argue that Terunofuji is the first to achieve proper repromotion.

**Desperate need to get a second Ozeki on the board.

[yorikiried by fate 2,029]

5 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Hey, you leave Onokuni alone!

Exactly! He's my buddy, too!

[And the saviour of tentmakers all over the world.]

[Kintamayama 45,484]

8 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Exactly! He's my buddy, too!

[And the saviour of tentmakers all over the world.]

AND can bake a mean cake.

[WAKATAKE 2,671]

1 minute ago, Kintamayama said:

AND can bake a mean cake.

Didn’t Onokuni go the George Foreman route and release a book or some kind of cooker?

[Kintamayama 45,484]

Official now- Ozeki Terunofuji, again.

[Kintamayama 45,484]

Just now, WAKATAKE said:

Didn’t Onokuni go the George Foreman route and release a book or some kind of cooker?

Baking book.

[Seiyashi 4,107]

34 minutes ago, Ragebaton said:

 While there is the general point not to reflect badly on the stable on the dohyo, would the reading that the potential embarrassment had more to do with to the role of the shisho in the judging department?

Eh, that might be a bridge too far... It's not like there's an expectation that a judging department oyakata's rikishi will do better in competition; it's not too far from there to the dirty three words in sumo! 

I think it's just more generally living up to the stablemaster's efforts and expectations, especially since the prevailing narrative is that Isegahama was all that stood between Terunofuji and a haircut - five times - and he wouldn't be back where he was had Isegahama given up on him earlier. 

23 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

I disagree with this half sentence.The fact that only two* guys ever managed to get the repromotion the hard way shows that, yes, this test is useful, even though it might be next to impossible. And even the example of Miyabiyama, who was denied a repromotion with 34 wins, showed that a strict interpretation makes sense. Just look at his results straight after: Not Ozeki worthy.

*As Kaiketsu's first promotion (7-8; 12-3Y; 11-4J) was a bit banzuke tactical/political**, you could even argue that Terunofuji is the first to achieve proper repromotion.

**Desperate need to get a second Ozeki on the board.

Yeah I agree with you here too. But this one is a bit of a value judgment; I'm accepting that I can see where the other chap is coming from when he says it's a bit rich for Terunofuji to be only ozeki after near-yokozuna results, even if it is against all known promotion rules. 

[Seiyashi 4,107]

51 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Yes, envoys and the whole shebang. When someone returns via the ten win at sekiwake next basho rule, no envoys. When someone returns from lower with the whole procedure, it's envoy time. The only other rikishi to ever achieve that, Kaiketsu, had envoys.

AND, the whole shebang will be streamed live via the Kyokai's official YouTube channel.

Any word on what time the shebang is going down? The YT channel doesn't specify, or I'm blind. 

[Seregost 132]

What happened to Chiyoshoma this basho? He got his kachikoshi with direct, straight-forward sumo, and had some really good wins. Did the virus change something in his head?

[Kintamayama 45,484]

55 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Any word on what time the shebang is going down? The YT channel doesn't specify, or I'm blind. 

Should be around 10 am JST  I think. It's usually after the banzuke making meeting.

[Ragebaton 6]

2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Eh, that might be a bridge too far... It's not like there's an expectation that a judging department oyakata's rikishi will do better in competition; it's not too far from there to the dirty three words in sumo! 

 

Alright, thank you. The assumed potential bridge for critique was with respect to the role that is played in the decision to promote.

[Seiyashi 4,107]

9 minutes ago, Ragebaton said:

Alright, thank you. The assumed potential bridge for critique was with respect to the role that is played in the decision to promote.

So I've checked somewhere else, and Herutto on Twitter clarifies: Terunofuji didn't want there to be any doubt about his repromotion, because he didn't want to put his oyakata in a difficult spot. If he had turned in a borderline 33, his oyakata might have been accused of favouritism had he been promoted. So he went all out to ensure there was absolutely no possibility of that - and arguably he succeeded. 

So yeah, you're originally right and I misread your post, my bad. 

[Yaochozuna 137]

1 hour ago, Seregost said:

What happened to Chiyoshoma this basho? He got his kachikoshi with direct, straight-forward sumo, and had some really good wins. Did the virus change something in his head?

Exactly what I was thinking, too. I called him the "heel" of the sumo world just before the basho and he seems to have taken in personally

[since_94 650]

3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

AND can bake a mean cake.

AND can make a bean cake. 
 

Is there anything “Sweets” cannot do?

[RabidJohn 1,849]

2 hours ago, Seregost said:

What happened to Chiyoshoma this basho? He got his kachikoshi with direct, straight-forward sumo, and had some really good wins. Did the virus change something in his head?

I can only assume something of a recovery from whatever's been ailing him since his fall from M2 four years ago. He did some beautiful sumo during his first few makuuchi basho. He's one of those rikishi who can be really good at times. Good to see some of it coming out again. 

---

I've been wondering about Terunofuji's rope prospects, too. Wondering if the NSK might bend the rules again. They did it before with his original ozeki promotion when he turned in consecutive yokozuna level performances as sekiwake. That preceding 8-7 at M2 (yes, he had the banzuke luck to go straight to sekiwake) handily added up to a total of 32/45, but he wasn't on an official ozeki run until they decided to promote him. 

Considering that he was an ozeki before injury sent him plummeting to jonidan, and that he's fought his way back to reclaim ozeki in such emphatic manner, his recent performance will be viewed as part of his ozeki resumé. 

Another win in May would be back-to-back yusho. The more I think about that, the more I believe the NSK and YDC would breathe a collective sigh of relief, and send the envoys around to Isegahama-heya again. Get some mileage out of him while those knees last.

[ryafuji 815]

12 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Hey, you leave Onokuni alone! :) He’s criminally underrated, tainted by that makekoshi, long kyujo spell and early retirement. But in that first 18 months or so, he was a match for anyone (1x 13-2Y, 3x 12-3, 3x 11-4). For reference, during that spell Chiyonofuji won six yusho (3x 15-0, 3x 14-1), Hokutoumi won two and the Ozeki corp featured future Yokozuna Asahifuji (one yusho). He was Kakuryu to Chiyonofuji’s Hakuho and Hokutoumi’s Haramufuji.

I’m not saying he was a great, but people talk about him now like he didn’t even know to wrestle and won the rope in a prize draw at a village fete or something. 

Hmmm. Were you around when Onokuni was a Yokozuna? He was brilliant as an ozeki, but his Yokozuna career never got going. He did win one yusho in that first 18 months, but other than that was barely even in contention... only one jun-yusho. And that 8-7 in September 1988 was awful to watch. For the talent he had, it was very disappointing.

Edited March 30, 2021 by ryafuji

[Ripe 73]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I've been wondering about Terunofuji's rope prospects, too. Wondering if the NSK might bend the rules again. They did it before with his original ozeki promotion when he turned in consecutive yokozuna level performances as sekiwake. That preceding 8-7 at M2 (yes, he had the banzuke luck to go straight to sekiwake) handily added up to a total of 32/45, but he wasn't on an official ozeki run until they decided to promote him. 

Considering that he was an ozeki before injury sent him plummeting to jonidan, and that he's fought his way back to reclaim ozeki in such emphatic manner, his recent performance will be viewed as part of his ozeki resumé. 

Another win in May would be back-to-back yusho. The more I think about that, the more I believe the NSK and YDC would breathe a collective sigh of relief, and send the envoys around to Isegahama-heya again. Get some mileage out of him while those knees last.

They could go either way... on the one hand they have a historic precedent in Futabayama for not promoting Terunofuji even if he win again in May because if Futabayama's back-to-back zensho yushos were not enough to get him a rope then whatever result Terunofuji achieve should not be enough as well. On the other hand, they could say that Futabayama's case was in 1937, that his second win was during his first basho as Ozeki and that there were already three yokozuna on banzuke at that point with one of them (Tamanishiki) winning three consecutive basho before Futabayama winning his two, making Terunofuji's case something completely different.

I'd say that it is far more likely that he wouldn't be promoted, but it will all depend on how desperate they are to have a yokozuna that will compete available.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Ripe

[Koorifuu 1,018]

6 hours ago, Seregost said:

What happened to Chiyoshoma this basho? He got his kachikoshi with direct, straight-forward sumo, and had some really good wins. Did the virus change something in his head?

More shockingly, he was even lending a hand to others so that they wouldn't fall off the dohyo!

[Eikokurai 3,437]

1 hour ago, ryafuji said:

He did win one yusho in that first 18 months, but other than that was barely even in contention... only one jun-yusho.

Let's see. I mentioned three 12-3 records in that timeframe. One was the jun-yusho you referred to, so how about the other two?

Haru 1989: 11-0 after 11 days, sharing the lead for the yusho with the other two Yokozuna. Then lost to eventual runner-up Asahifuji (13-2), a Maegashira and finally Chiyonofuji, who won the yusho 14-1. On the final day, he beat Yokozuna Hokutoumi. But for a final day fusensho for Asahifuji that gifted him his 13th win, Onokuni would have shared the jun-yusho.

Natsu 1989: 10-0 after 10 days, sole leader in the yusho race. In the last five days he beat the eventual runner up Asahifuji and Ozeki Hokutenyu. Onokuni finished one win off the yusho pace and only didn't get the JY because Asahifuji and Hokutoumi both got 13-2. JY went to the playoff loser.

For my money, he was firmly in contention in both cases, only falling off the pace in the final few days, mostly against his direct yusho rivals. 12-3 is often enough for a yusho. Only very specific circumstances denied him even a jun-yusho. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Eikokurai

[ryafuji 815]

33 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Let's see. I mentioned three 12-3 records in that timeframe. One was the jun-yusho you referred to, so how about the other two?

Haru 1989: 11-0 after 11 days, sharing the lead for the yusho with the other two Yokozuna. Then lost to eventual runner-up Asahifuji (13-2), a Maegashira and finally Chiyonofuji, who won the yusho 14-1. On the final day, he beat Yokozuna Hokutoumi. But for a final day fusensho for Asahifuji that gifted him his 13th win, Onokuni would have shared the jun-yusho.

Natsu 1989: 10-0 after 10 days, sole leader in the yusho race. In the last five days he beat the eventual runner up Asahifuji and Ozeki Hokutenyu. Onokuni finished one win off the yusho pace and only didn't get the JY because Asahifuji and Hokutoumi both got 13-2. JY went to the playoff loser.

For my money, he was firmly in contention in both cases, only falling off the pace in the final few days, mostly against his direct yusho rivals. 12-3 is often enough for a yusho. Only very specific circumstances denied him even a jun-yusho. 

Those were two occasions when he did manage to get it together in the first week, yes, something which he usually failed at. I still think "criminally underrated" is a bit of an exaggeration, although maybe you weren't being completely serious. And I'm curious to know whether you watched his performances at the time, or if you're just going off the statistics. My perception of him may be biased by personal memory and it can be useful to get a fresh perspective, but IMO he was way too inconsistent even before the make-koshi disaster.

Edited March 30, 2021 by ryafuji
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[Amamaniac 2,079]

7 hours ago, Seregost said:

What happened to Chiyoshoma this basho? He got his kachikoshi with direct, straight-forward sumo, and had some really good wins. Did the virus change something in his head?

From what I have heard, he is currently unhampered by an injury that sent him down to the Juryo Division for seven tournaments in 2019...

[Seiyashi 4,107]

30 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

7 hours ago, Seregost said:

What happened to Chiyoshoma this basho? He got his kachikoshi with direct, straight-forward sumo, and had some really good wins. Did the virus change something in his head?

From what I have heard, he is currently unhampered by an injury that sent him down to the Juryo Division for seven tournaments in 2019...

Come to think of it, it probably wasn't the virus but the fact that he had 4 months out to heal properly. A lot of people recorded their best results in a while, or otherwise looked a lot better than they would have, after the basho cancellation last year, or when their own heya was forced to sit out. Enho and Ishiura were tearing it up in juryo for the first half of this basho, for example.

[RabidJohn 1,849]

4 hours ago, ryafuji said:

... I'm curious to know whether you watched his performances at the time, or if you're just going off the statistics. My perception of him may be biased by personal memory and it can be useful to get a fresh perspective, but IMO he was way too inconsistent even before the make-koshi disaster.

I remember Onokuni being a serious contender most of the time. Sure, his best years were before he got the rope, but they were good enough to get the promotion at a time when Chiyonofuji was still strutting his stuff, so that was no mean feat in itself. 

I see a lot of parallels with Kisenosato: fine runs of JY as ozeki, one yusho as ozeki, one yusho as yokozuna, and hung on far too long after a career-ending injury.

I'm sure I read somewhere that when Onokuni did the right thing and handed in his resignation after that infamous 7-8 at Aki 88, they refused to accept it. Told him to recover and come back strong. They didn't want to lose such a popular yokozuna. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by RabidJohn

[Asashosakari 19,593]

There is of course also the tabloids' long-standing contention that Onokuni was the only mid-80s high ranker who was completely gachinko, which one may or may not want to incorporate into assessing his results relative to his peers.

[ryafuji 815]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

I remember Onokuni being a serious contender most of the time. Sure, his best years were before he got the rope, but they were good enough to get the promotion at a time when Chiyonofuji was still strutting his stuff, so that was no mean feat in itself. 

I see a lot of parallels with Kisenosato: fine runs of JY as ozeki, one yusho as ozeki, one yusho as yokozuna, and hung on far too long after a career-ending injury.

I'm sure I read somewhere that when Onokuni did the right thing and handed in his resignation after that infamous 7-8 at Aki 88, they refused to accept it. Told him to recover and come back strong. They didn't want to lose such a popular yokozuna. 

That's correct, yes, he did offer to retire after that but they asked him to carry on. He sat out the next basho, but unfortunately he broke his ankle on the last day of his comeback tournament.