March basho 2021

[Seiyashi 4,107]

5 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

18 hours ago, rzombie1988 said:

I think it's a bad look that Terunofuji came 2nd in the last two basho's and won this one, yet at best is two tournaments away from getting to Yokozuna. And what happens if he wins the May tournament but then gets injured and can't compete in the July tournament? He'd be facing kadoban despite having a more impressive record than anyone else in sumo and would then need probably another two tournaments to get the Yokozuna promotion. 

I think it further sucks that all of this is happening with both Yokozuna's out. They can say "well, he was just a Komusubi/Sekiwake and his path to victory wasn't as hard as an Ozeki's was", but there were no Yokozuna, so he was fighting the exact same opponents than an Ozeki would have. Yet if a Takakeisho or Asanoyama pulled his same results off during the last few bashos, they would be Yokozuna right now.

If Takakeisho or Asanoyama pulled off the same results during the last few basho they’d be Yokozuna because they’re both already Ozeki. You may not like it, but the ranking system and a century of sumo tradition isn’t going to be cast aside for anyone, Mongolian or Japanese. Every rank you hold is a platform to get the next one. You make it to Juryo in order to get to Makuuchi; once a Maegashira, you climb to junior sanyaku, and so on. There are no shortcuts, with reason. Yokozuna isn’t just a reward for winning championships—it’s a reward for sustained dominance as an Ozeki. Terunofuji’s reward for his performances in junior sanyaku is to become an Ozeki.

If you look at the matchup matrix for makuuchi, you'll realise that makuuchi is essentially splittable into two divisions: upper makuuchi, consisting of the sanyaku and joi, and lower makuuchi, consisting of everyone else. So theoretically, every member of upper makuuchi has the same schedule as each other starting out, just that depending on the arasoi, the torikumi might be shaken up a little for lower sanyaku (and rarely for upper sanyaku) towards the end of the basho.

By removing the perception that "oh, the K/S schedule was easier than Y/O", you see what the whole promotion system really is about. It's not just about good results against the top crew. It's about the ability to sustain good to exalted results in such an environment over time, and you are rewarded for those. If you are good enough, you will blow through them in minimal time, like Asashoryu. And even with these high thresholds, we arguably get several wrestlers who are promoted and yet are complete flops at the rank, like Miyabiyama as an ozeki or Onokuni as yokozuna. The step-by-step promotion requirements are to make sure you don't have a flash in the pan who has maybe the best 30 or so honbasho days of his life and then flops like mad - like Tokushoryu - who subsequently cheapen the rank for ease of attainment.

Whether the thresholds are set properly is a different matter altogether (see the recent angsting over what an ozeki is expected to do), but I see no problem in principle with requiring the very top ranks to be very difficult to obtain, and to require investments of more than just one or two basho worth of good results. If you've ever played a game with god mode on and had that ruin the experience for you... yeah, that's exactly what the yokozuna rank will be like if we give it up easily.

Arguably Terunofuji is an exception because he is a wrestler of yokozuna calibre coming back from injury, and hence he is already "known" to be good and arguably ought not need to be tested in this way. In that you do have a point, although it's the rules of the game that everyone knows and plays by. But what he has lost in time he has more than gained in the estimation of the fans; even if he never makes the rope because time ran out on his knees, he will always be remembered as the wrestler who reclaimed ozeki from jonidan. It's been said he wants the rope but I'm not sure it's a good thing even if he gets it; he is unlikely to have a long and excellent yokozuna career and a subpar rope tenure may sour the overall assessment of his career, especially in an era of little to no yokozuna presence.

[Churaumi 743]

Sumo is very much about the breaks a wrestler gets. Tokushoryu won because he was the most stable among who showed up that basho. Harumafuji would have won many more yusho but Hakuho was dominant at the time. Kisenosato could have been a powerful yokozuna but he got hurt. Terunofuji should have been wearing a rope years ago, but injuries and infirmities tanked his career. He still has time, and I think he'll make it, but he has to prove himself all over again.

[Seiyashi 4,107]

25 minutes ago, Churaumi said:

Sumo is very much about the breaks a wrestler gets.

Never mind sumo, that's true of life in general!

[dingo 1,281]

So how about the elephant in the room:

Kakuryu and Hakuho are only hanging around as long as they are in order for Terunofuji to return and reach yokozuna, thereby continuing the Mongolian legacy and most importantly, denying the rise of a Japanese yokozuna. 

Nope, this is not a conspiracy theory at all, I have recordings of meetings of the secret society of the Mongolian rikishi. And besides, anyone can deduce it simply by looking at the facts.

How about it, sound believable enough?

[Seiyashi 4,107]

10 minutes ago, dingo said:

So how about the elephant in the room:

Kakuryu and Hakuho are only hanging around as long as they are in order for Terunofuji to return and reach yokozuna, thereby continuing the Mongolian legacy and most importantly, denying the rise of a Japanese yokozuna. 

Nope, this is not a conspiracy theory at all, I have recordings of meetings of the secret society of the Mongolian rikishi. And besides, anyone can deduce it simply by looking at the facts.

 

  Hide contents

How about it, sound believable enough?

We really need the Ridiculous Predictions thread up stat.... 

[Gaijingai 1,594]

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2021/03/11c685768c1e-sumo-terunofuji-pursued-promotion-with-stablemasters-honor-in-mind.html

[Ripe 73]

6 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

If Takakeisho or Asanoyama pulled off the same results during the last few basho they’d be Yokozuna because they’re both already Ozeki.

Would they be promoted with 13-2 D, 11-4 J and 12-3 Y? Kisenosato got his promotion based on strength of his performance over six basho. His 13-2 J, 13-2 J, 12-3 J, 10-5, 12-3 J and 14-1 Y is a Yokozuna level performance. I'm not sure just three good basho would be enough... especially with the one before those three being only 8-5-2.

[Barutokai 65]

Congrats to Terunofuji. I think he can make it to the rope but will intai in the next 2 years due to lack of knees. So a short but awesome Yokozuna-Carreer

[Kaminariyuki 499]

Well, Happy Banzuke Oazuke, the name suggested by Ahokaina for the day after senshuraku, very appropriate, IMO.

That was a good one, although a shame Takakeisho did not force a playoff in makuuchi. Some excellent sumo and some of the young bucks are really stepping up like Wakatakakage. How about that kid (yes, 26 year-olds are now kids to me)? He went 10-5 from M2 with the technique prize, and that after a 2-4 start. I was impressed.

 

[Eikokurai 3,437]

16 minutes ago, Ripe said:

Would they be promoted with 13-2 D, 11-4 J and 12-3 Y? Kisenosato got his promotion based on strength of his performance over six basho. His 13-2 J, 13-2 J, 12-3 J, 10-5, 12-3 J and 14-1 Y is a Yokozuna level performance. I'm not sure just three good basho would be enough... especially with the one before those three being only 8-5-2.

Okay, yes, that’s true. My point was really that if they were promoted to Yokozuna, it would simply be because they are Ozekis, not because they’re Japanese as the OP was implying. I wasn’t really considering the specifics of the records there, but you’re right.

[Asapedroryu 235]

Assuming Terunofuji will be confirmed as Ozeki tomorrow, what will be the process for a former ozeki?

Are they going to send the NSK envoys to bring the news and have the traditional cerimony like new ozeki?

[Yamanashi 3,888]

Sanyaku is a strange thing.  Junior Sanyaku (Sekiwake and Komosubi), it seems to me, are treated much like M1 and M2: a 7-8 for a Sekiwake slides him over or sends him down to Komosubi.  An 8-7 in Komosubi could stay pat, slide up to Ke, or slide up to Sekiwake, depending on other rikishi's performances. You could get an 8-7 at Sekiwake for 30 basho and, other than the record, you wouldn't get much recognition (nor would you get a promotion!).  Since these ranks are never treated as a destination, it's hard to know what to expect from them (unless as the mathematically necessary launching pad to Ozeki and Yokozuna).

Suppose we tried to set up expectations for these ranks in terms of wins per basho.  We'd have to use 8-7 as the criterion for keeping a K slot (less than that and you fall to Maegashira, more than that and you bump up to S).  Then Sekiwake must have an expectation of 9 wins in a basho (because 10 wins in a basho is already considered the "Ozeki Kachi-koshi").  Obviously that's cutting things too fine, because nobody really gets the same score basho after basho [well, Sakahoko was Sekiwake for 8 straight basho ... ].  So what's the use of the two Junior Sanyaku ranks?  When someone speaks of a wrestler having "Sekiwake Pride",  he must be proud to reach as high as you can without reaching the legendary status of Ozeki or Yokozuna.  So, what's "Komosubi Pride"?

[Eikokurai 3,437]

7 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Onokuni as yokozuna

Hey, you leave Onokuni alone! :) He’s criminally underrated, tainted by that makekoshi, long kyujo spell and early retirement. But in that first 18 months or so, he was a match for anyone (1x 13-2Y, 3x 12-3, 3x 11-4). For reference, during that spell Chiyonofuji won six yusho (3x 15-0, 3x 14-1), Hokutoumi won two and the Ozeki corp featured future Yokozuna Asahifuji (one yusho). He was Kakuryu to Chiyonofuji’s Hakuho and Hokutoumi’s Haramufuji.

I’m not saying he was a great, but people talk about him now like he didn’t even know to wrestle and won the rope in a prize draw at a village fete or something. 

[Seiyashi 4,107]

3 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

8 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Onokuni as yokozuna

Hey, you leave Onokuni alone! :) He’s criminally underrated, tainted by that makekoshi, long kyujo spell and early retirement. But in that first 18 months or so, he was a match for anyone (1x 13-2Y, 3x 12-3, 3x 11-4). For reference, during that spell Chiyonofuji won six yusho (3x 15-0, 3x 14-1), Hokutoumi won two and the Ozeki corp featured future Yokozuna Asahifuji (one yusho). He was Kakuryu to Chiyonofuji’s Hakuho and Hokutoumi’s Haramufuji.

I’m not saying he was a great, but people talk about him now like he didn’t even know to wrestle and won the rope in a prize draw at a village fete or something. 

Sorry - was grasping for examples and he was the first to come to mind :D

But generally, the yokozuna promotion criteria have worked and the men who relatively flop at the rank tend to have done so because of injury (Wakanohana III and Kisenosato, for example). It's easier to point to ozeki flops than it is to yokozuna flops. If Goeido hadn't zenshoed once he'd definitely be an absolute flop.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

Just now, Seiyashi said:

Sorry - was grasping for examples and he was the first to come to mind :D

But generally, the yokozuna promotion criteria have worked and the men who relatively flop at the rank tend to have done so because of injury (Wakanohana III and Kisenosato, for example). It's easier to point to ozeki flops than it is to yokozuna flops. If Goeido hadn't zenshoed once he'd definitely be an absolute flop.

Hehe. I’m just ribbing. I know he’s often cited as the quintessential Yokozuna flop. :)

[Seiyashi 4,107]

2 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Hehe. I’m just ribbing. I know he’s often cited as the quintessential Yokozuna flop. :)

Worryingly, we might be seeing our next one. Terunofuji has expressed a determination to go for the rope, but he must be the most banged-up yokozuna aspirant in sumo history. He's one bad fall away from intai if he gets the rope. We'll be lucky to get two or three more yusho out of him once he gets the rope, never mind five or ten.

[rzombie1988 159]

10 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Shortcuts and tradition

There are shortcuts. Ozeki can have a bad tournament and not lose rank as long as they get 8 wins the next time for years at time. They can even blow or miss two tournaments in a row and get back to their rank if they win 10 times. They can do this as a reward for reaching the Ozeki rank. The shortcuts get worse with Yokozuna. See Hakuho and Kakuryu who missed massive amounts of matches yet keep their rank as a reward for reaching Yokozuna.

It's a historical system, which has undergone many changes itself, but not a perfect system.

And no, I wasn't implying anything about being Japanese or Mongolian. I just forgot about Shodai.

Edited March 30, 2021 by rzombie1988

[Seiyashi 4,107]

39 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said:

It's a historical system, which has undergone many changes itself, but not a perfect system.

It's not historical insofar as the requirements have been amended and explicated before in relatively recent times, and the NSK ultimately keeps it alive because it exercises discretion in any individual situation. It's not as if these standards have been cast down as holy writ since the Edo period and been followed slavishly since. Ultimately, if we have any beef with the promotion standards, then we simply have a different vision of sumo which is not shared by the powers that be - and so be it; as people with no skin in the game, our views have no impact and that's the way it should be.

If you really wanted to attack culture and tradition, the BS that is their shambolic injury management and inbuilt sexism even in extreme situations really ought to be the target. Culture and tradition is no excuse for mismanaging injuries and keeping women off the dohyo in emergencies.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

1 hour ago, rzombie1988 said:

There are shortcuts. Ozeki can have a bad tournament and not lose rank as long as they get 8 wins the next time for years at time. They can even blow or miss two tournaments in a row and get back to their rank if they win 10 times. They can do this as a reward for reaching the Ozeki rank. The shortcuts get worse with Yokozuna. See Hakuho and Kakuryu who missed massive amounts of matches yet keep their rank as a reward for reaching Yokozuna.

It's a historical system, which has undergone many changes itself, but not a perfect system.

And no, I wasn't implying anything about being Japanese or Mongolian. I just forgot about Shodai.

Those aren’t shortcuts, those are privileges. A shortcut is something you take on a journey somewhere.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

11 hours ago, Churaumi said:

Sumo is very much about the breaks a wrestler gets.

Absolutely. Right time, right place. You can win a yusho with 12-3 one basho but come second with 14-1 the next. You can get promoted to Sekiwake from M1w on the strength of an 8-7 or only become a third Komusubi after a 13-2 yusho. That’s just the way it goes.

[Jakusotsu 6,037]

8 hours ago, Gaijingai said:

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2021/03/11c685768c1e-sumo-terunofuji-pursued-promotion-with-stablemasters-honor-in-mind.html

Huh? Have I missed something? What's that about "protect the reputation of his stablemaster Isegahama" and not to "sling mud at my stablemaster"?

[since_94 650]

Some notes from Juryo on Day 15

After eking out his KK on Day 15, Shouhozan looked relieved. Understandably. Do not go gentle into that good night...

Nishikigi finishes on 7-8 and many have save himself from relegation to the unpaid ranks. Ditto. Almost can't imagine sekitori ranks without him.

Bushozan at 7-8. I thought he fought better than his record indicates. I like this newcomer. Looks like Takakeisho but seems to have more going on, dynamism-wise, than the Ozeki, IMO.

Enho’s ashitori on Wakamotoharu was impressive. He makes these flashy techniques look routine and they surely make for exciting bouts. What a tournament he had! With his size, he seems much better suited for juryo.

Iyamamoto on 10-5. Who? This young man has not been on my radar. I guess he should be. Ishiura ends up 9-6 which is respectable and he showed some good sumo. More importantly, no henkas from him  (IIRC).

Tokushoryu, Churanoumi and Kyokutaisei all MK. Bummer.

Jokoryu looking good at 10-5. Really glad he’s back in salaried ranks and fighting well.

Hakuyozan’s defeat of Chiyomaru meant no playoff, which was sort of anticlimactic, but I’m happy for the yusho winner. He deserved it. Yet another likeable journeyman on his way back the ladder, one would hope.

Hidenoumi finishes 10-5 uses tsukuinage and defeats Hoshoryu, who ends up 8-7. That was a great fight. Hoshoryu limping afterwards, but hopefully nothing serious. At least no beating from Uncle for a KK.

[Seiyashi 4,107]

16 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Huh? Have I missed something? What's that about "protect the reputation of his stablemaster Isegahama" and not to "sling mud at my stablemaster"?

The original Japanese was that it was unacceptable for there to be mud on his shisho's face, ie for him to cop out of the arasoi after winning promotion, or for him not to win promotion at all. The implication being that he did not want to wrestle in a manner which would be anything less than exemplary as a representative of Isegahama stable. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Kintamayama 45,484]

6 hours ago, Asapedroryu said:

Assuming Terunofuji will be confirmed as Ozeki tomorrow, what will be the process for a former ozeki?

Are they going to send the NSK envoys to bring the news and have the traditional cerimony like new ozeki?

Yes, envoys and the whole shebang. When someone returns via the ten win at sekiwake next basho rule, no envoys. When someone returns from lower with the whole procedure, it's envoy time. The only other rikishi to ever achieve that, Kaiketsu, had envoys.

AND, the whole shebang will be streamed live via the Kyokai's official YouTube channel.

[Ragebaton 6]

10 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

The original Japanese was that it was unacceptable for there to be mud on his shisho's face, ie for him to cop out of the arasoi after winning promotion, or for him not to win promotion at all. The implication being that he did not want to wrestle in a manner which would be anything less than exemplary as a representative of Isegahama stable. 

 While there is the general point not to reflect badly on the stable on the dohyo, would the reading that the potential embarrassment had more to do with to the role of the shisho in the judging department?