Kintamayama

March basho 2021

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3 minutes ago, robnplunder said:
10 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Don't know the answer, but my initial thought was that this puts pressure on Hakuho to follow suit. 

I made a similar comment on another thread.   Hak can't be too far behind unless he can reverse the time.

Unlike Kakuryu, he has actually stepped on the dohyo and won in the interim, and he has an excuse of one COVID kyujo basho, not to mention he has still won a tournament last year.

I'd put it this way - if he cannot compete in July, he should retire on the spot rather than break another promise. I have no illusions that there'll be plenty of grumbling by the YDC, but with Kakuryu out of the way there is less impetus to want to get rid of 2 for the price of 1.

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8 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Unlike Kakuryu, he has actually stepped on the dohyo and won in the interim, and he has an excuse of one COVID kyujo basho, not to mention he has still won a tournament last year.

I'd put it this way - if he cannot compete in July, he should retire on the spot rather than break another promise. I have no illusions that there'll be plenty of grumbling by the YDC, but with Kakuryu out of the way there is less impetus to want to get rid of 2 for the price of 1.

Yeah, don't disagree with this perspective either. Kakuryu stated that this basho would be his do or die, and it ended up being so. Hakuho has made the same statement about July, and perhaps he should be given that chance.

But in the meantime, he's expected to miss the May basho, and it's doubtful his knee will be fully healed or that he'll be anywhere near prime Hakuho form even if he does mount the dohyo in July. 

In either case, the writing is on the wall for him too. 

Edited by Kaninoyama

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It may aswell take the heat off of Hakuho. 

Takayasu had this opening day loss where I honestly thought that was it, way too early loss to be a contender, but he had quite a few great showings since then. I hope he can keep it up.

I will say that to me, all things considered, everyone within spitting distance still has a shot though, since the skill level is so close on normal days that almost everyone can beat everybody else on almost any day. (Great analytics, ain't it?) 

I hope to be able to participate more from tomorrow onwards. This Basho is really interesting, but work was keeping me busy. Luckily, I have a few off-days coming up. 

 

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9 hours ago, Asojima said:

Not mocking him.  He had many years as a mainstay in the makuuchi, and he is to be commended for that.  His lifestyle and organizational abilities have long been considered to be on the bizarre side.  He recognizes that, and he is well aware that he is not cut out to be one of the kyokai's shining lights.

I think the crucial thing is that he himself recognizes his limitations. There are way too many people in the world who believe themselves more capable than they are. It takes intelligence to know one's own limitations. Also see Dunning-Kruger effect. 

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Just now, dingo said:
9 hours ago, Asojima said:

Not mocking him.  He had many years as a mainstay in the makuuchi, and he is to be commended for that.  His lifestyle and organizational abilities have long been considered to be on the bizarre side.  He recognizes that, and he is well aware that he is not cut out to be one of the kyokai's shining lights.

I think the crucial thing is that he himself recognizes his limitations. There are way too many people in the world who believe themselves more capable than they are. It takes intelligence to know one's own limitations. Also see Dunning-Kruger effect. 

You've accidentally triple posted...

Re DK effect: while there is "anecdotal" evidence, the statistical basis for it has been shown to be most likely a numerical artifact (i.e. meaningless), and the anecdotal effect might fit into our preconceived biases regarding our assessment of individual abilities.

A mild quibble - intelligence and wisdom (for you DnD players out there) aren't the same thing. We can laugh at him for his apparent lack of intellect, but his wisdom and self-awareness are certainly to be respected deeply.

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Midorifuji was limping painfully after his match. Appears to be a right ankle injury, suffered while bracing on the bales against Kagayaki's weight (according to the interviewer). May be an unfortunate kyujo for him after today. 

Edited by Kaninoyama
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1 minute ago, Kaninoyama said:

Midorifuji was limping heavily after his match. May be an unfortunate kyujo for him after today. 

I didn't notice how he hurt it during the replay. He was definitely having difficulty putting weight on it after the bout though. Hopefully he can just shake it off.

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13 minutes ago, Shinobi Steve said:

I didn't notice how he hurt it during the replay. He was definitely having difficulty putting weight on it after the bout though. Hopefully he can just shake it off.

See above. The backstage reporter who interviewed him after the match said he hurt the ankle bracing his body against the bales. 

Edited by Kaninoyama

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Last basho, Hoshoryu lost his first 5 bouts before winning all but his last one to finish 9-6.

This basho, he lost 3 of his first 4 bouts, and now stands at 7-4. 

Once he learns to eliminate these slow starts, look out. 

 

Edited by Kaninoyama
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Just as Takayasu is Terunofuji's kryptonite, so is Shodai to Takayasu.

It's not as bad as it could have been given Takayasu still has a 1 win lead and an easy schedule, but man.

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Oh nooooooooooo. This is on me. I kept saying how Shodai could face demotion after the next tournament, so he paid me back by defeating my favourite to win this tournament. :'-(

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And finally all the qozeki have untangled themselves with all three winning, for the first time, on day 11.

(Qozeki: combined joke from Ross Mihara and Herouth. Herouth's been joking that the ozeki are quantum entangled since all of them couldn't win together this basho, and Ross Mihara was sharing a rather mean joke on NHK that the ozeki were being called kozeki - "small barriers" rather than "big barriers".)

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16 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

(Qozeki: combined joke from Ross Mihara and Herouth. Herouth's been joking that the ozeki are quantum entangled since all of them couldn't win together this basho, and Ross Mihara was sharing a rather mean joke on NHK that the ozeki were being called kozeki - "small barriers" rather than "big barriers".)

Actually, that is no meaner than the term "faux-zeki" circulated in these parts! ;-)

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37 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

It's not as bad as it could have been given Takayasu still has a 1 win lead and an easy schedule, but man.

Shodai was not the wrestler I expected to hand Takayasu a loss this tournament.  But there we have it.

As much as I hate to say it, Takayasu may just end up squandering that juicy 2-win lead after ten days, and joining the men on the short modern-era list of shame.  The suspense in this yusho race just got a major boost!  The watch is on.  Will Takayasu be able to regroup and fend off the challenge from the three scrappers breathing down his back (Asanoyama, Terunofuji, and ... out of nowhere, Tobizaru!)?  

Stay tuned tomorrow, same battle time, same battle channel.

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7 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Shodai was not the wrestler I expected to hand Takayasu a loss this tournament.  But there we have it.

Easy to be wise after the fact, but considering Shodai is doing badly for his rank but not objectively getting steamrolled in every bout, it's not surprising that Shodai is the one to beat Takayasu. Looking at the list of wrestlers he has yet to fight, Shodai and Takakeisho were the ones who were likely to give him the most trouble going on H2H alone, and Shodai has the added motivation of trying to avoid going kadoban.

As long as Takayasu resets after this, he's still got it. His opposition is far easier than Terunofuji's, who has to get past all three ozeki and those by no means are gimmes, given Terunofuji's flagging form in the tail end of this basho. I expect him to drop at least one to either Takakeisho or Shodai; I think he will beat Asanoyama but considering Asanoyama's fairly different sumo this basho I would at least expect Asanoyama to give him a run for his money. The spoiler here is Tobizaru; if he beats all his lower maegashira opposition while Takayasu and Terunofuji continue dropping bouts, we might see a repeat of Tobizaru v Shodai a few basho ago and an impressive second jun-yusho in a very young top-division career.

Edited by Seiyashi

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21 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Shodai was not the wrestler I expected to hand Takayasu a loss this tournament.  But there we have it. 

I always thought he was the biggest spoiler in the joi in his pre-ozeki days. He had a knack for upsets when his opponent had the most to lose.

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47 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

The spoiler here is Tobizaru; if he beats all his lower maegashira opposition while Takayasu and Terunofuji continue dropping bouts, we might see a repeat of Tobizaru v Shodai a few basho ago and an impressive second jun-yusho in a very young top-division career.

That’s what I’m rooting for! Tobizaru has been very exciting this basho. He has a rapidly growing following based on his personality. I really want to see him do well. 

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Eye-catching reversals from Tobizaru and Hoshoryu today. Tsukiotoshi feels too underwhelming as the kimarite call for the former’s throw on the bales.

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33 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Eye-catching reversals from Tobizaru and Hoshoryu today. Tsukiotoshi feels too underwhelming as the kimarite call for the former’s throw on the bales.

Yeah, that looked tantalizing close to utchari from Tobizaru, didn't it?

I've been resisting stepping aboard the Hoshoryu hype train, but I have to admit his disposal of Okinoumi today was very impressive.

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3 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:
41 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Eye-catching reversals from Tobizaru and Hoshoryu today. Tsukiotoshi feels too underwhelming as the kimarite call for the former’s throw on the bales.

Yeah, that looked tantalizing close to utchari from Tobizaru, didn't it?

I've been resisting stepping aboard the Hoshoryu hype train, but I have to admit his disposal of Okinoumi today was very impressive.

Yeah, it looked more like an utchari than Enho's actually-called utchari in juryo today.

I think the mark of sanyaku-class rikishi (not that the current crop entirely fulfils this definition) is consistency and holism. You can see flashes of good sumo from Hoshoryu but when he loses he looks really bad. I have no doubt he will get there in time but he needs to work on being more consistent overall.

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2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Actually, that is no meaner than the term "faux-zeki" circulated in these parts! ;-)

The criticism of the three Ozeki is also ill founded garbage.

This is Shodai's third Ozeki basho. He went Kyujo in one, was in the yusho race in the second and got the Jun-Yusho, and is currently 6-5 in the third and likely to get two more wins out of four and KK. Nothing to criticise there for a guy who is only in his second Ozeki basho where he hasn't injured himself.

Takakeisho is in his tenth Ozeki basho, of which he was kyujo in four of them, the first two of which caused him to drop back to Sekiwake, where he immediately got twelve wins and the rank back. Not counting the kyujo bashos he has had a yusho and a jun-yusho, and has had only one MK. He needs only one more win this basho to KK.

Asanoyama is in only his fifth Ozeki basho with one kyujo. The other three he got 11, 10, 11 and two jun-yusho. This one he is on eight wins with four days to go, and is in the yusho race.

Take the kyujo's out and these are entirely respectable Ozeki numbers, even if a number of yusho have been won by rikishi beneath them on the banzuke.

The guy everyone is comparing them to, Terunofuji, in his fifth basho back in Makuuchi. He won the first one from M17 with an easy schedule and has had a kyujo. The other two completed have been 11 and 13 win jun-yushos and he is on 8 for this basho, same as Asanoyama. But he has lost to Shimanoumi and Onosho. 

For well over ten years Ozeki have been not winning bashos. Kisenosato - one Ozeki yusho; Kotoshogiku - one Ozeki yusho; Goeido - one Ozeki yusho, Takayasu- zero Ozeki yushos; Tochinoshin - zero Ozeki yushos; Terunofuji - zero Ozeki yushos. And if you want to go back a bit: Baruto - one Ozeki yusho; Kotoosho - one Ozeki yusho. 

I get that the criticism is partly because there are no dominant Yokozunae at the moment, but two of them have completed two and four Ozeki basho respectively, and the third has a yusho as an Ozeki. The criticism is unwarranted. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Morty said:

Asanoyama is in only his fifth Ozeki basho with one kyujo. The other three he got 11, 10, 11 and two jun-yusho. This one he is on eight wins with four days to go, and is in the yusho race.

And Asanoyama hasn’t done worse than double digits (excluding his kyujo) since September 2019.

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40 minutes ago, Morty said:

I get that the criticism is partly because there are no dominant Yokozunae at the moment, but two of them have completed two and four Ozeki basho respectively, and the third has a yusho as an Ozeki. The criticism is unwarranted. 

I think it's a fair bit more nuanced than that.

For starters, ozeki results in Sengoku periods like the present one are interpreted very differently in comparison to Shogunal periods under the reign of dai-yokozuna. When you have a dominant yokozuna with an established pecking order, then ozeki automatically fall into the underdog class. No one is looking at them expecting them to win and break out unless they're yokozuna-in-waiting themselves. When they can promote by spectacularly beating the current yokozuna, it's a fantastic feel-good story but otherwise, the pressure is not on them to win. As long as they clock 10+ wins, don't go kadoban that often, don't abuse kosho too much, no one cares about them too much. In Sengoku periods, the pressure on the ozeki gets turned all the way up. Without yokozuna, they are expected to win yushos. Period. The focus devolves on them all to provide leadership from the front end of the banzuke.

In some ways, I think the current ozeki have been unfairly tarred with the same brush as the previous batch. The last great ozeki we had was Kisenosato. Since his promotion and Terunofuji's demotion in 2017, we have had a complete change of the ozeki guard; Goeido, Terunofuji, Takayasu and Tochinoshin have been replaced by Asanoyama, Takakeisho, and Shodai. The previous batches of ozeki really misfired; Goeido famously blew a three bout lead and was kadoban pretty frequently, Takayasu was a perennial bridesmaid, and Terunofuji's and Tochinoshin's ozeki careers stalled before they could properly begin. Then we had the debacle in 2019 of a sekiwake slot being permanently jammed up by an ozekiwake for four basho running (although one of them was Takakeisho). All this while, Hakuho and Kakuryu were already well into their on-again, off-again cycle and showing up as a title challenge only every other tournament. So for almost four years now, the name ozeki really hasn't meant very much, and it is a mild joke that it took Takakeisho's yusho in November '20 to break a record-breaking ozeki title drought.

That said, I agree with you that a sense of perspective has been lacking. In the past two years and 11 basho, of the 7 basho that weren't won by yokozuna, 4 basho were won by ozeki or ozeki potentiates (M8 Asanoyama, M17 Terunofuji, S1 Shodai, O1 Takakeisho), with the other three won by Mitakeumi, Tokushoryu, and Daieisho. If you squint really hard, you could count all three of them as having involved ozeki or ozeki potentiates too: Mitakeumi went to a playoff with ozekiwake Takakeisho in his, and Tokushoryu and Daieisho were chased by Shodai all the way during their title runs. The current batch of ozeki also sort of have the misfortune of having to hold up the top end of the banzuke so soon into their careers as ozeki and to have to contend with the resurgence of two ex-ozeki back with a vengeance and making them look bad in contrast (there's quite some irony in those two ex-ozeki arguably looking better out of the rank than in it).

In the grand scheme of things, I think the current ozeki are doing alright to ok as ozeki, and in consideration of their relative youth I think they're doing great, but they just haven't done enough to reinspire confidence in a rank that was quite badly mangled for two years before they came to it. To be fair to the criticisers (or maybe unfair, depending on which way you see this), it's not clear whether they're criticising the rank as it has been in the past four years, or the current holders of the rank.

Edited by Seiyashi
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3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

(Qozeki: combined joke from Ross Mihara and Herouth.)

Q Ozeki? Well, it's true that people on the Internet have been indulging in a conspiracy theory about how they're terrible....

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42 minutes ago, Sue said:

Q Ozeki? Well, it's true that people on the Internet have been indulging in a conspiracy theory about how they're terrible....

Which one? Anonoyama?

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