2021 "Kozumo" Hatsu Basho discussion thread

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,244]

32 minutes ago, Mightyduck said:

Would it be used in place of 'pair' or 'brace'?

No, its strongly implied to be (doing) together or (going) together, like really expecting a verb/action.

The only way its a countable noun pair in Japanese is regarding a romantic couple like 'lovers' or something but I just only pulled that from a dictionary. To be honest seeing a big massive katakana アベック trying to convey something romantic is kind of weird.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Tsuchinoninjin

[Gernobono 454]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

The proceedings - specifically the hyoshigi clapping between rounds and the PA and gyoji announcements - made clear that it was actually 9/8/4/2 though:

in japanese Sports News on nhk they showed the brackets.....strangely from  bottom to top with the pre elimination on the low left

[Jakusotsu 5,761]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

The proceedings - specifically the hyoshigi clapping between rounds and the PA and gyoji announcements - made clear that it was actually 9/8/4/2 though.

Raja Pradhan, however, didn't catch it and talked about a double-bye tomoe-sen structure.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

On 25/01/2021 at 17:58, Asashosakari said:

About the makushita playoff, it's amusing that indeed the matches as they took place would also have made just as much sense in the context of a (pre-drawn) 9/5/3 structure:

Thank you for pointing out that at first sight, the Makushita playoff could be misconstrued as having a 9/5/3 bracket structure.  Hence, my initial confusion.  At least I only feel like half an idiot now. 

 

On 25/01/2021 at 17:58, Asashosakari said:

There are other historical 9-man playoffs where it's equally opaque what format they actually used,

According to the database, the last time there was a 9-way playoff (in Makushita at least) was in the 1996 Nagoya Tournament.  

Edited January 26, 2021 by Amamaniac

[Koorifuu 860]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

About the makushita playoff, it's amusing that indeed the matches as they took place would also have made just as much sense in the context of a (pre-drawn) 9/5/3 structure:

Honestly, I watched it live and was absolutely convinced that was the case... until now.

[Asashosakari 18,673]

13 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

Honestly, I watched it live and was absolutely convinced that was the case... until now.

I'll be honest, too, my first assumption was also that they had simply decided to do all the drawing of lots off stage. Only when the word "tomoe-sen" didn't get uttered on PA before the final (two) match(es) I started to become skeptical. I didn't catch the hyoshigi pattern until I rewatched it.

The one big but very late tip-off was that Sakigake got introduced again by the yobidashi before the last match - in a tomoe-sen the yobidashi would have stepped up only to introduce Shiba as the "joining" opponent.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Jakusotsu 5,761]

Wich makes Gernobono's prediction all the more uncanny:

On 22/01/2021 at 09:08, Gernobono said:

guess the have a pre elimination round and the last 8 are elimnation for the yusho

thats how they do it with 5 men

[Asashosakari 18,673]

5-ways actually do play down to a tomoe-sen, though. (Although the DB match listing for the makuuchi 5-way in 1996 is very confusing to me right now...)

Edit: And here comes another post for the DB thread after digging around...

Edited January 25, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,244]

3 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

5-ways actually do play down to a tomoe-sen, though. (Although the DB match listing for the makuuchi 5-way in 1996 is very confusing to me right now...)

Edit: And here comes another post for the DB thread after digging around...

So you're saying Gernobono was accidentally wrong twice but still made the correct prediction.

Sounds like proper sumo to me!  Next in Norizo Cup, Is the tomoe-sen realized or not?

[Tiger Tanaka 218]

Been a big fan of Daieisho for a while now and so thrilled to see him get a yusho. Love his combination of style and size. He's had a great run the last two years and would love to see him keep it going through 2021

[Kaninoyama 1,663]

9 minutes ago, Tiger Tanaka said:

Been a big fan of Daieisho for a while now and so thrilled to see him get a yusho. Love his combination of style and size. He's had a great run the last two years and would love to see him keep it going through 2021

Daieisho has a pre-Yokozuna Kakuryu vibe about him. Unassuming. Keeps grinding slowly up the banzuke. You barely notice him. But then, just when you think he's going to plateau, he takes it up a notch.

Won't surprise me at all if he eventually grinds his way to Ozeki.  

Edited January 26, 2021 by Kaninoyama

[Benevolance 2,472]

I only have time to armchair quarterback for movers and shakers. And I'm a big fan of Daiesho now that he's a winner. And that dipthong? Wow! 

[Eikokurai 3,433]

6 hours ago, Benevolance said:

I only have time to armchair quarterback for movers and shakers. And I'm a big fan of Daiesho now that he's a winner. And that dipthong? Wow! 

I’m not sure how Japanese phonology counts a diphthong, but in English that ‘aiei’ in his name would be two, ‘ai’ (/aɪ/) and ‘ei’ (/eɪ/) both being diphthongs.

[Gurowake 3,886]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

I’m not sure how Japanese phonology counts a diphthong, but in English that ‘aiei’ in his name would be two, ‘ai’ (/aɪ/) and ‘ei’ (/eɪ/) both being diphthongs.

Japanese phonology of consecutive vowels doesn't really fit with the more Western-based ideas of a syllable.  Japanese tends to be analyzed by native speakers in terms of morae, and Daieisho contains 3 conseecutive vowel morae with no consonants after the vowel in the initial mora, but as far as I'm aware it's pronounced identically to how Western speakers would pronounce two consecutive diphthongs.  Some sources claim that there is a hiatus between all vowels in Japanese, but that's really only on a theoretical level because of how their own linguists identify morae instead of syllables; "ai" and "ei" are basically diphthongs in two morae, with a clear hiatus between the two in the shikona in question, but that's more due to the kanji structure that gives rise to the 4 straight vowel sounds.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Gurowake

[Eikokurai 3,433]

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Japanese phonology of consecutive vowels doesn't really fit with the more Western-based ideas of a syllable.  Japanese tends to be analyzed by native speakers in terms of morae, and Daieisho contains 3 conseecutive vowel morae with no consonants after the vowel in the initial mora, but as far as I'm aware it's pronounced identically to how Western speakers would pronounce two consecutive diphthongs.  Some sources claim that there is a hiatus between all vowels in Japanese, but that's really only on a theoretical level because of how their own linguists identify morae instead of syllables; "ai" and "ei" are basically diphthongs in two morae, with a clear hiatus between the two in the shikona in question, but that's more due to the kanji structure that gives rise to the 4 straight vowel sounds.

Thanks. I've come across mora before, both when studying Japanese years ago and during my own studies into phonology for work, but my focus has always been on English and, to a slightly less extent, Mandarin. Since mora aren't usually considered as a part of modern English phonology, I've never had more than a cursory look into them.

[RabidJohn 1,644]

This discussion is brought to you by rikishi superstition.

At least according to Chris Gould it is. Daieisho started out as Daishoei, but was apparently advised that shikona ending with 'ei' tend to result in lower body injuries!

[Benihana 1,900]

10 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

shikona ending with 'ei' tend to result in lower body injuries!

Which part of the lower body? The legs, or the Eier?

[Eikokurai 3,433]

12 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

This discussion is brought to you by rikishi superstition.

At least according to Chris Gould it is. Daieisho started out as Daishoei, but was apparently advised that shikona ending with 'ei' tend to result in lower body injuries!

Because ‘shō’ has an excellent track record of keeping rikishi safe. Ask Takakeisho, Onosho, Takanosho, Tsurugisho ...

[pricklypomegranate 730]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

Because ‘shō’ has an excellent track record of keeping rikishi safe. Ask Takakeisho, Onosho, Takanosho, Tsurugisho ...

And, most notably and importantly, Hakuhō Shō. 

[Yamanashi 3,690]

I have been having an intense internal colloquy over the philosophical problems involved with going away from "hands down" sumo, and whether this will affect the popularity of chicken-based chankonabe at sumobeya.  Am I overthinking this?

[Eikokurai 3,433]

30 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

I have been having an intense internal colloquy over the philosophical problems involved with going away from "hands down" sumo, and whether this will affect the popularity of chicken-based chankonabe at sumobeya.  Am I overthinking this?

Maybe. There’s an old saying among chankonabe cooks: A good chef never takes stock.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,244]

This info sheet about previous 9 man makushita playoffs was posted in a facebook group. 4 Showa and 1 heisei era.

In all showa matches the 'bye each round to 3 man round' was used and in heisei the pre-elim into a normal tournament was used. The interesting thing is that when byes were used, the ultimate champion never received a bye.

I think this was all discussed already but its nice to have in a single chart like this (sorry, I don't feel like rebuilding it in english at google sheets :/)

Edited January 30, 2021 by Tsuchinoninjin

[WAKATAKE 2,624]

Top 10 updates for Hatsu 2021:

- Daieisho becomes the 11th active rikishi to have a yusho to his name
- Terunofuji gets his 6th jun-yusho, which is halfway to get into the top 10. Shodai and Asanoyama each get their 3rd jun-yusho
- Tsurugisho gets his 2nd Juryo yusho, one more gets him onto the top 10 list for Juryo yusho
- Hokuseiho had to sit out this basho due to the Covid outbreak at Miyagino beya, however we will be counting any wins he gets at the start of Haru 2021
- Hakuho was ranked in Makuuchi for the 99th basho, which ties him for 2nd place with Kyokutenho, barring retirement between now and Haru, he will become the 2nd person to reach 100 basho in Makuuchi
- Hakuho was ranked as yokozuna for the 80th basho, which extends the all-time record
- Kakuryu was ranked as yokozuna for the 40th basho, which raises the 10th place bar. He needs two more basho to tie 9th place Asashoryu
- Terunofuji competed in his 19th post-ozeki basho. We may not be seeing number 21 if he gets promoted back the rank after Haru
- Tochinoshin competed in his 7th post-ozeki basho. Next basho he will tie Kaiketsu (to date the first and only person to be promoted to ozeki the conventional way twice) for 10th place
- Takayasu competed in his 6th post-ozeki basho, but he cannot get onto the top 10 list at all with Tochinoshin in front of him
- Mitakeumi competed in his 22nd sanyaku basho. He is guaranteed to be ranked for number 23 in Haru 2021. He needs to be ranked 3 more times to tie number 10 Tochiozan
- Hakuho was ranked as a sekitori for the 101st basho. He needs three more to tie 7th place Takamiyama
- Hanakaze competed in his 208th career basho, extending the all time record
- Though not a record, Hanakaze became the first active 50 year old in 116 years old to achieve kachi-koshi
- The following rikishi competed in their numbered basho respectively: Tenichi and Terunosato in basho #166 (5th place), Fujinokaze in basho #164 (7th place), Sawaisamu in basho #161 (8th place), Itakozakura and Gorikiyama in basho #160 (9th place)
- Hanakaze got his 91st career kachi-koshi, which keeps him in 4th place on the all time list. He needs two more kachi-koshi to tie 3rd place Chiyonofuji
- Shoketsu got his 83rd career kachi-koshi, which moves him into sole 10th place above Harumafuji. He needs one more to tie 9th place Fujinokaze (still active)
- Itakozakura got his 105th career make-koshi, he is currently 5th place on the all time list make-koshi
- Moriurara and Terunosato got their 93rd career make-koshi, they are currently 6th place on the all time list for career make-koshi
- Tenichi and Higohikari got their 88th career make-koshi, they are currently 9th place on the all time list and can "tie" Kyokuhikari with 2 more MK each
- Akiseyama successfully returned to Makuuchi after 28 basho, which puts him at 4th place for slowest return to the top division (3/2016~1/2021) *Natsu 2020 was cancelled and not counted
- Hanakaze now has 761 career losses, 29 more losses ties him for 10th place on the all time list
- This is the 4th basho in a row not won by a yokozuna since Hakuho in Haru 2020. This ties for 5th place on longest durations but will technically be extended in Haru to a fifth basho
- Takakeisho will be kadoban for the 3rd time in Haru 2021. Two more times will get him into the top 10 for most kadoban by individual ozeki
- All junior sanyaku members will continue their ranked in sanyaku basho streaks next basho. The current streaks are as follows: Mitakeumi at 4 basho, Terunofuji, Takanosho, Takayasu at 2 basho

[Yamanashi 3,690]

31 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

- Kakuryu was ranked as yokozuna for the 40th basho, which raises the 10th place bar. He needs two more basho to tie 9th place Asashoryu

"80% of success is just showing up." -- Woody Allen

[Eikokurai 3,433]

8 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

"80% of success is just showing up." -- Woody Allen

“80% of Yokozuna longevity is not showing up”.