2021 "Kozumo" Hatsu Basho discussion thread

[Eikokurai 3,433]

40 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Regarding the Makushita playoff, wouldn't it be more "fair" to have the two lowest ranked do the pre-elimination bout instead of drawing lots? Ozumo is all about hierarchy after all.

I was pondering something similar, inspired by what happens in US sports and the FA Cup in England.

In the NFL, the best team in each conference gets a bye for the first round of the playoffs. The other divisional champions get home advantage. Wild cards get the hardest route to the Super Bowl, needing to win every game away from home. 

In the FA Cup, teams join in different rounds depending on league position. Premier League and Championship sides don’t join until round three, while amateur teams begin months earlier in the qualifying rounds. Top teams only need to win six games to win the trophy; amateur teams need to win twice as many.

In both systems, the rewards are graded on a scale. The better you are/higher up you are, the greater the advantages. Sumo could do something similar based on rank. There are several models they could try. One would be yours, with the two lowest rankers facing off in a qualifying bout. The eight survivors would then be matched up based on rank, so the highest ranked would face the lowest ranked, second highest would face second lowest, and so on. It could be a straightforward elimination tournament then.

Another model could be to have the two lowest rankers fight and the winner of that then fight the next lowest ranked guy, and so on, until eventually the highest ranked guy faces whoever survived to that point. The lowest ranked could have to fight several playoff bouts to win the yusho, while the highest ranked would only need to win one. I guess this system is a bit unfair as everyone had the same record, but then again, lower rankers get an easier schedule in theory, so perhaps demanding more of them to earn the yusho isn’t so harsh?

Alternative playoff systems seems like an idea for a new thread.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Eikokurai

[Amamaniac 2,078]

1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

2 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Regarding the Makushita playoff, wouldn't it be more "fair" to have the two lowest ranked do the pre-elimination bout instead of drawing lots? Ozumo is all about hierarchy after all.

I was pondering something similar, inspired by what happens in US sports and the FA Cup in England.

In the NFL, the best team in each conference gets a bye for the first round of the playoffs. The other divisional champions get home advantage. Wild cards get the hardest route to the Super Bowl, needing to win every game away from home. 

In the FA Cup, teams join in different rounds depending on league position. Premier League and Championship sides don’t join until round three, while amateur teams begin months earlier in the qualifying rounds. Top teams only need to win six games to win the trophy; amateur teams need to win twice as many.

In both systems, the rewards are graded on a scale. The better you are/higher up you are, the greater the advantages. Sumo could do something similar based on rank. There are several models they could try. One would be yours, with the two lowest rankers facing off in a qualifying bout. The eight survivors would then be matched up based on rank, so the highest ranked would face the lowest ranked, second highest would face second lowest, and so on. It could be a straightforward elimination tournament then.

Another model could be to have the two lowest rankers fight and the winner of that then fight the next lowest ranked guy, and so on, until eventually the highest ranked guy faces whoever survived to that point. The lowest ranked could have to fight several playoff bouts to win the yusho, while the highest ranked would only need to win one. I guess this system is a bit unfair as everyone had the same record, but then again, lower rankers get an easier schedule in theory, so perhaps demanding more of them to earn the yusho isn’t so harsh?

Alternative playoff systems seems like an idea for a new thread.

If we approach this question based on logic and non-Japanese examples, then yes, probably everyone would agree that there are better, more-fair ways of handling tomoesen playoffs.  As fate would have it, in the recent Makushita playoff, the second lowest-ranked participant got the bye in the first round, and then the lowest-ranked wrestler got the bye in the second round.  That does indeed not seem fair.

Should there be reforms in oozumo?  Certain ones wouldn't hurt, and certain ones are painfully obvious (n.b., that was meant as punny reference concussion protocols).  

But here is what I think stands in the way of many calls for reform.  Yes oozumo is very much about hierarchy, but it is also about other things like fate and tradition.  While the right body-technique-mind will win bouts 80% of the time (in Hakuho's prime perhaps 98%), there is still a significant amount of fate and the unexpected.  Partly because of that, sumo wrestlers have all kinds of superstitions (e.g., yusho winner, Daieisho's shikona change).  Drawing lots ties in to this mindset of fate.  

And then there is the trump card: tradition.  Drawing lots is how things have been done since ... whenever.  

I recently watched a YouTube video which seems to me may shed some light on what's what.  In his farewell to Japan, Connor Sullivan points out things that frustrated him about his time in the country that he so enjoyed.  At the corporate level (let's include the NSK), Japan survives and thrives on domestic demand, "so they don't understand how to make international-style content".  Despite the shrinking domestic market, Japan is extremely slow to change.

Here's the part that speaks to the topic broached by Jakusotsu: "I cannot tell you how many meetings I've been in where I see they clearly agree with our (i.e., Western) proposal to help them communicate with international style, but they don't want to be the ones to decide a new style of communication, or even to work with a new company, instead of the same Japanese advertising agency that they've worked with for the last 50 years, even though they know the results they're getting are terrible..."

I guess my point is that no matter what we see as a better way of doing things, and no matter if sumo rijikai members agreed with our proposals, the NHK will still be reluctant to do things differently than they've been doing since ... whenever.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Amamaniac

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

5 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

As fate would have it, in the recent Makushita playoff, the second lowest-ranked participant got the bye in the first round, and then the lowest-ranked wrestler got the bye in the second round.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

7 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

12 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

As fate would have it, in the recent Makushita playoff, the second lowest-ranked participant got the bye in the first round, and then the lowest-ranked wrestler got the bye in the second round.

Ms56e Kototsubasa didn't fight in the first round, and in the second round he fought his first bout against Sakigake who had won his first round bout.  That is to say, when Kototsubasa was  fighting his first bout in the playoffs, Sakigake was fighting his second.

Then Ms60w Fukamiyama, after winning his first-round bout, sat out the second round only to go up against Sakigake who had won his second-round bout.  That is to say, when Fukamiyama fought his second bout, Sakigake was already on his third.

While I missed it on the broadcast, I'm assuming they drew lots to determine who got the byes.

Please tell me if I got that wrong.

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

The surprises arguably started early, however, with the schedulers opting for a straight knockout bracket instead of the double-bye format playing down to a tomoe-sen final that has been more commonly used for 9-man playoffs. Time considerations? Covid-19 reservations about a bunch of rikishi drawing lots in close proximity in full camera view? Moon phases? Who knows.

 

 

[Atenzan 1,074]

On 19/01/2021 at 22:18, Atenzan said:

I haven't been following the basho until now due to health problems I've been dealing with (all fine now), just went to check the yusho arasoi and I have one thing to say.

Daieishou got absolutely screwed by the banzuke committee. M2w 10-5 only good enough for M1w? You have drawn his ire. 8-0, 9-1, whatever, this doesn't stop here. Daieishou is not going to be stopped until he reaches a rank where his banzuke luck isn't a factor.

 

On 19/01/2021 at 23:10, Asashosakari said:

So M1e?

@Asashosakari
What type of dark magic is this now? All 4 S/K kachikoshi...

[Amamaniac 2,078]

31 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

The surprises arguably started early, however, with the schedulers opting for a straight knockout bracket instead of the double-bye format playing down to a tomoe-sen final that has been more commonly used for 9-man playoffs. Time considerations? Covid-19 reservations about a bunch of rikishi drawing lots in close proximity in full camera view? Moon phases? Who knows.

 

38 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Ms56e Kototsubasa didn't fight in the first round, and in the second round he fought his first bout against Sakigake who had won his first round bout.  That is to say, when Kototsubasa was  fighting his first bout in the playoffs, Sakigake was fighting his second.

Then Ms60w Fukamiyama, after winning his first-round bout, sat out the second round only to go up against Sakigake who had won his second-round bout.  That is to say, when Fukamiyama fought his second bout, Sakigake was already on his third.

If there were no byes, then I can't explain what I've outlined above.  They were dealing with an uneven number of wrestlers, and so it was inevitable that one of them got a bye in the first two rounds.  And as I tried to point out, the guys that sat out were random, and, based on your initial post, it seemed unfair.  So the question remains, how did they decide who got byes?

I suspect that lot drawing was involved, but as Asashosakari points out, there probably were COVID and time considerations involved.  Therefore, I suspect lots may have been drawn off camera (either in advance for the first round; or by officials on the spot rather than the wrestlers themselves in the second round).

Edited January 25, 2021 by Amamaniac

[Gaijingai 1,527]

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2021/01/e81a1d8210da-sumo-daieisho-savors-flood-of-well-wishes-following-tournament-win.html

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

13 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

So the question remains, how did they decide who got byes?

Nobody got a bye. Sakigake's first match was a randomly decided pre-elimination bout.

[Gernobono 455]

3 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Nobody got a bye. Sakigake's first match was a randomly decided pre-elimination bout.

maybe you should say that there were 7 byes for round of 16 

[Amamaniac 2,078]

5 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Nobody got a bye. Sakigake's first match was a randomly decided pre-elimination bout.

Obviously, I hadn't considered that.  Nevertheless, when I see the words "randomly decided", I hear "some kind of lottery".

Edited January 25, 2021 by Amamaniac

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

3 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Nevertheless, when I see the words "randomly decided", I hear "some kind of lottery".

Sure, but that was done behind the scenes before the action even started.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

And then there is the trump card: tradition.  Drawing lots is how things have been done since ... whenever.

Sumo is less a slave to tradition than many people think. A lot of what we often assume has been part of sumo for centuries is actually a recent innovation. The idea of a yusho itself only formally came in 1926 after several years being awarded unofficially by the press. Prior to 1909 there was no tournament winner at all. We’ve seen changes to the dohyo (corner poles removed and shimpan moved down in 1952) to make it more spectator and TV friendly, and the introduction of video referees to improve officiating. On the dohyo, shikiri-sen were first used only in 1928. Division sizes fluctuated until they decided to fix Juryo and Makuuchi at 28 and 42 respectively. The kimarite list is reviewed and updated. Rules about bouts between guys from the same ichimon, heya or family have been revised over the years. And playoffs? Only introduced in 1947. Before that the yusho simply went to the highest ranked rikishi when two were tied.

Tradition only stops the Kyokai making changes to the cultural aspects of sumo, but as administrators of sumo as a professional sport, the Kyokai has always been happy to reform when there’s a need or demand.

 

P.S. Overall I agree with the assessment though that Japanese people seldom want to be the ones to do the reforming. That is a thing in the NSK too I imagine. People tend to see themselves as temporary custodians of whatever position they hold. i.e. It’s not theirs, they’re just occupying it for a while.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Eikokurai

[Amamaniac 2,078]

12 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Sure, but that was done behind the scenes before the action even started.

Actually, reviewing the list of participants, the selection of the two opponents in the "pre-elimination bout" may not have been "randomly decided" after all.  Sakigake was fourth from the top of the list by ranking, and his opponent, Hamayutaka was fourth from the bottom of the list.

It's starting to make more sense now.  Thanks! 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Amamaniac

[Kintamayama 44,354]

14 hours ago, Morty said:

I totally agree. This forum is one of the best and most respectful places on the whole internet. Nobody goes ad hominem, there is no flaming, everyone treats each other well. Well done to all the forum members for being a thoroughly decent bunch of human beings - kudos!

You should have been around back in the day.. The moderators had to work overtime. But that's all behind us for a few good years.,

Edited January 25, 2021 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Daieishou yusho interview:

Q: Your first yusho..

A:  I am totally happy.. It was really good!

Q: First lifting of the Cup..

A: I didn't think it was THAT heavy, so I was a bit surprised. I'm happy..

Q: What are you most satisfied about?

A: I was thinking all I can do was do my sumo till the end, without hesitation!

Q:  When did you become conscious of your yusho chance?

A: When I won on day 14. I was thinking  'tomorrow is the last bout'. I told myself not to lose focus till the end.

Q: It's the first yusho by a Saitama rikishi..

A: I did a lot of self-confidence building sumo. I am totally thrilled!

Q: It's a first yusho out of Oitekaze beya as well..

A: Everyone was in great shape (Tsurugishou won the Juryo yusho as well, what they call an "abeku yusho", when the Juryo and Makuuchi yushosha are from the same heya, derived from the French "avec") so I'm happy..

 

Confusion will be my epitaph.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Sanspo has been featuring gems uttered by our favorite commentator Kitanofuji on radio and on TV on a daily basis. I may group them all and do a translation, (there are many..) but for now these gems.. On senshuraku the camera focused on Daieishou from the back in the hanamichi as he prepared to enter the dohyo area. "Well, he looks good from the back as well. His buttocks stick out, huh? He's got a good ass.. Seriously good ass.." When Sanbe announcer tried to correct him gently by saying "You mean buttocks.." he answered "He has a good buttocks.."

After the broadcast- "Haaa,, aaah, it's over, huh? I've got absolutely nothing to do till the next basho.. A lot of spare time again.." When someone said "We're looking forward to seeing you next basho" he answered: "Oh, if I'm still alive.."

"I'd like to thank the fans for coming during these cold and trying times. If I didn't have to work, I wouldn't want to come.." "Oh no, don't say that.." said a flushed Sanbe announcer.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Kintamayama

[Koorifuu 886]

10 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Then what, chat up Okinoumi?

He doesn't look like he's got a choice, unfortunately! The good part is that it looks like it might buy him a decent amount of time, since Okinoumi is still in peak form with no signs of decline.

This changing of the guard is causing a massive logjam in kabu... Interesting, but sad to see that so many passionate borrowing oyakata are likely to have to go - unless things suddenly change.

[Atenzan 1,074]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

(Tsurugishou won the Juryo yusho as well, what they call an "abeku yusho", when the Juryo and Makuuchi yushosha are from the same heya, derived from the French "avec")

That hasn't happened in a while; last pair were Asashouryuu/Touki for Takasago-beya in Kyushu 2005

[Yamanashi 3,725]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

what they call an "abeku yusho", when the Juryo and Makuuchi yushosha are from the same heya, derived from the French "avec"

So, it's called "with yusho" when two heya-mates win??  Must be a translation thingy.

[Akinomaki 39,790]

4 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

So, it's called "with yusho" when two heya-mates win??  Must be a translation thingy.

abeku (avec) in Japan is the term for being together as a couple

[Kashunowaka 300]

46 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

abeku (avec) in Japan is the term for being together as a couple

In Swedish, avec means an alcoholic beverage (such as cognac, liqueur etc.) served after dinner together with your coffee.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

About the makushita playoff, it's amusing that indeed the matches as they took place would also have made just as much sense in the context of a (pre-drawn) 9/5/3 structure:

L    Hamayutaka      Sakigake       W
L    Shohoryu        Nishikifuji    W
L    Ryusei          Shiba          W
L    Nihonyanagi     Fukamiyama     W

W    Sakigake        Kototsubasa    L
L    Nishikifuji     Shiba          W

L    Fukamiyama      Sakigake       W
L    Shiba           Sakigake       W

The proceedings - specifically the hyoshigi clapping between rounds and the PA gyoji and yobidashi announcements - made clear that it was actually 9/8/4/2 though:

L    Hamayutaka      Sakigake       W

L    Shohoryu        Nishikifuji    W
L    Ryusei          Shiba          W
L    Nihonyanagi     Fukamiyama     W
W    Sakigake        Kototsubasa    L

L    Nishikifuji     Shiba          W
L    Fukamiyama      Sakigake       W

L    Shiba           Sakigake       W

(There are other historical 9-man playoffs where it's equally opaque what format they actually used, at least if one goes only by the pure listing of matches on the DB. The old Takayama website was more explicit about it.)

Edited January 25, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Mightyduck 67]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

abeku (avec) in Japan is the term for being together as a couple

Would it be used in place of 'pair' or 'brace'?

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Also, I don't have any issue with sumo playoffs being unseeded. There is only one prize here and whoever wants it needs to beat everyone in his path anyway. Seedings are only needed where some relevant rewards are also available for reaching the interim rounds.