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2021 "Kozumo" Hatsu Basho discussion thread

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2 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Shodai still has to face the Sanyaku rikishis.   I still like Daieisho's chance at the yusho.

I still think Daieisho will still be the champion. Takakeisho out, especially in his condition, makes no difference and can be easily beaten by him. Asanoyama, Takanosho and Terunofuji will be a bit dicey. He also has Wakanohana's curse upon him. Should Shodai poach Takakeisho's tsuna run to start up his own, do you guys think he will make in by March? I do not think so - his physical condition is really terrible right now, and Hakuho (or even Kakuryu) might stop him in Haru. Hakuho is old, yes, but I do not think his illness is very serious despite being quarantined in the hospital. He was released quicker than Wakatakakage, who was there before him! However, I do think that Shodai's tsuna run will be more convincing and is more likely to go through than Takakeisho's. 

2 hours ago, robnplunder said:

I thought Okinoumi won the first one but lost the 2nd.

Agree. Okinoumi won the first, but the 2nd his toe was out of the tawara even though Shodai was almost "dead". 

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

As for Shodai's victory by monoii, I could have gone with an Okinoumi win in the regulation bout.  Shodai was definitely heading out and more importantly both his feet were off the ground before Okinoumi's left toes crossed the bales.  It was, however, a close call, and a torinaoshi was a reasonable decision by the judges.  In the rematch, however, even though Shodai was falling back into the corner, he made sure that his feet stayed down in, and a slight twist of his body may just have pulled Okinoumi (i.e., his right toes) out first.  I definitely saw sand from the janome flying up in the fall.  Yes, another monoii would probably have been the best decision, but NHK (i.e., NHK news) is paying the bills!

The sad thing is that Shikimori Inosuke gets another gunbai sashichigae, and will have to submit his resignation once again.  Talk about a cat having nine lives!  How many "lives" has this "cat" lost now?  Something tells me he has sold his tanto short sword, and replaced the blade with bamboo...

Shikimori Inosuke has made so, so many mistakes and I don't particularly like how he always seems to get in the way and topple right off the dohyo, or how he calls the rikishi. I definitely don't see a top-top tate gyoji coming up soon, but his tanto better not be made from bamboo. It's going to hurt way, way more... (Laughing...)

Kimura Konosuke all the way. He doesn't do it much anymore, but TE WO TSUITE! 

Edited by pricklypomegranate
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Shodai you lucky boy...

Hiro mistakenly called Hoshoryu as Asashoryu, that was hilarious. Even now, his presence is still felt around the dohyo!

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iMHO Shodai is indeed lucky. the decisions after the monoii were correct calls but they were close calls. Shodai did not look as strong as he did earlier in the basho. I hope He regains his earlier power

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A torinaoshi was a reasonable call in the first bout, and looking at the replays of the second it's clear Okinoumi did step out first. Shodai was lucky, but you can't say Okinoumi was robbed.

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32 minutes ago, nagora said:

When did they stop handing out draws (azukari/hikiwake)?

 

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10 hours ago, nagora said:

When did they stop handing out draws (azukari/hikiwake)?

There are three types of draws that I know of: azukari, hikiwake and itadamiwake. 

Azukari was given by the gyoji if the match was very close a clear winner could not be discerned. Such a ruling was influenced by decisions made in ye olden days, like before the late 19th century - rikishi were represented by different sponsors and the gyoji might choose to give a draw to preserve the "face" and political/diplomatic alliances between families. In its last appearance (Kyushu 1951), Y1E Azumafuji was no longer in a condition to fight then O1E Yoshibayama (who later became a yokozuna and founded Miyagino-beya). Yoshibayama was to be awarded the win/upset, but refused it as he technically did not defeat his opponent. This coupled with the fact that perhaps he wanted to preserve the Yokozuna's honour might be why Yoshibayama's insistence was entertained. This was phased out with the torinaoshi (do-over) system, and perhaps because elders felt it was redundant with itamiwake still in action (see below). 

Hikiwake is given when no clear winner can be discerned after an extremely long bout, despite efforts to reset it, such as multiple water breaks or torinaoshi. The last time was in 1974 September in M10w Mienoumi v. M6e Futagodake. 

While the forum is still discussing the Shonannoumi incident, itadamiwake is given when the opponent is too injured to continue fighting the bout - the last time it happened was in Hatsu 1999(!) between Jd66w Fusanonami v. Jd61e Hidenishiki. This was probably the last draw to be phased out, perhaps because it complicated banzuke creation. Nowadays, as we almost saw in Shonannoumi's unfortunate incident, the inability to fight is now an automatic loss. 

None of these three apply to the Okinoumi v. Shodai bout today well. I still hold my opinion that a torinaoshi should not have been called as I felt Okinoumi already won the first bout. However, it really boggles the mind that sumo in the past at least had some recourse (though limited it may be) for bouts when the opponent is unfortunately not in a state to continue fighting. The myth that "head-on" sumo is always necessarily honourable and doing so preserves the "honour" and "grit" of sumo ancestors really needs to stop. 

Edited by pricklypomegranate
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11 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Azukari was given by the gyoji if the match was very close a clear winner could not be discerned.

As far as I know, this definition actually applies to mushōbuAzukari would apply in today's bout, as it would have been a match that was too close to decide after monoii.

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11 minutes ago, Kamitsuumi said:

As far as I know, this definition actually applies to mushōbuAzukari would apply in today's bout, as it would have been a match that was too close to decide after monoii.

Perhaps, but mushobu is so ancient that Sumodb has no information on it - it might have been replaced with azukari, so I just used the more recent term. Although there is no definite phasing out, azukari would still not apply because there is the torinaoshi system now. 

Edited by pricklypomegranate

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8 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

There is one other Makushita wrestler with a perfect record.  They have a significant rank difference ( Ms48w versus Ms 8w), so I am not sure if they will go up against each other in their final regulation bout(s).

They won't meet in regulation as Shohoryu and Hamayutaka are both from Tokitsukaze stable. They will be matched against alternative opponents in their last matches and the scheduling staff will be hoping that at least one of them wins to avoid a multi-man play-off at 6-1.

Edited by Tigerboy1966
phrasing and typos
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22 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

They won't meet in regulation as Shohoryu and Hamayutaka are both from Tokitsukaze stable. They will be matched against alternative opponents in their last matches and the scheduling staff will be hoping that at least one of them wins to avoid a multi-man play-off at 6-1.

Thanks for that clarification.  But don't forget the other possible outcome: they both win, and we get to see another intra-stable playoff.  Those are my favourite, just because they break a basic torikumi rule in oozumo.

Edited by Amamaniac
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8 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Should Shodai poach Takakeisho's tsuna run to start up his own, do you guys think he will make in by March? I do not think so - his physical condition is really terrible right now, and Hakuho (or even Kakuryu) might stop him in Haru. Hakuho is old, yes, but I do not think his illness is very serious despite being quarantined in the hospital. He was released quicker than Wakatakakage, who was there before him! However, I do think that Shodai's tsuna run will be more convincing and is more likely to go through than Takakeisho's. 

As athletes get older, it becomes harder and harder to come back from a break.  I think Hak and Kak will player lesser run in yusho runs going forward which gives the likes of Shodai a better chance.   But right now, Shodai is playing like a solid Ozeki - he is not overwhelming the field.  So, I don't see him being a Yokozuna by March.   

 

Edited by robnplunder

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Ozeki Watch for day 12

All the drama on day 11 came in Shodai's double monoii victory over Okinoumi.  Even if some fans were outraged about the final decision, you've got to admit that the dynamic tension just got raised a few levels, and that's exactly what good entertainment is all about.  Let's consider a possible scenario where a wrestler wins a championship by just one win, except that one of his wins was a fusensho.  Was Shodai's monoii victory the same as that?  Definitely not.  So all things being equal, we go into day 12 with a tie in the yusho race.  And if you are an Asanoyama fan, now he too is within striking distance.  Wouldn't that be amazing if he were to win this thing after having tried desperately to do so before Arashio IV retired, only to get injured!  There are always plenty of stories in each Grand Sumo Tournament.  The question is: who will end up writing theirs?

Tomorrow Shodai faces yet another rank-and-filer: Ryuden.  At M6e, Ryuden is even lower ranked than Shodai's opponent today, not to mention co-leader Daieisho!  This will be his last gift horse (?).  No serious threat of upset here.  Ryuden is a very lacklustre 4-7 thus far.  These two Top Division dogs have met six times, and Shodai has taken the spoils in five of the six.  Interestingly enough, the one meeting that Ryuden won was in July of 2019, when Ryuden was in Sanyaku (i.e., West Komusubi) and Shodai was a mere rank-and-filer (M3e).  My, how their fortunes have changed!  Shodai must be somewhat tired from his double escape today, but hopefully he will have enough in the tank to dispatch Ryuden.  He will need everything he's got against his final three (possibly more) opponents.

Meanwhile, Asanoyama will have his hands full with S1e Terunofuji.  These two men have similar fighting styles, but this is one pairing where Asanoyama doesn't want to go belt-to-belt, since the Mongolian definitely has a huge advantage in the power department.  For Terunofuji, this will be about willpower.  His knees are working, but just barely.  His 7-4 record thus far in the New Year Tournament suggests that he has had his share of early set backs – four to be exact.  But here's the thing: from Terunofuji's perspective, he is one win away from his kachikoshi which will help him stay at his current rank, and he still has a shot at double-digit wins which would keep his Ozeki (re) promotion hopes alive.  On paper, Terunofuji is the odds-on favourite.  These two have faced off three times in 2020, and Teru has won each and every time.  Despite that, this is an important bout for both wrestlers (thank you, Captain Obvious), and victory may just boil down to who wants it the most.  

While the men at the top of the banzuke (what's left of them) fight it out, Daieisho will be trying his best to avoid misfortune and silly mistakes.  His loss today must have hurt.  But even though he is level with Shodai now, it still feels like he has a cushion.  Even without a "lame" (as in injured) Takakeisho around, there is still a strong chance that one of the two remaining Ozekis will be handed a loss on day 12.  I'll let you decide about whom I'm talking...

Edited by Amamaniac
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I like how Hoshoryu is recovering from his five straight loses. He might as well finish with a 10-5.

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Shodai got incredibly lucky. Neither bout was convincing from him though, so the yusho race is wide open. 

Mitakeumi seems to actually do well in the second week for a change. 4 wins in a row is quite good. 

Another one who's quietly putting together a pretty good basho is Yutakayama. 10 wins is not out of reach for him. 

And Mainoumis comment on the ashitori in Ryuden vs Terutsuyoshi was pretty funny - "Ryuden has long legs so you kinda want to grab them don't you..." :-D

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9 minutes ago, dingo said:

And Mainoumis comment on the ashitori in Ryuden vs Terutsuyoshi was pretty funny - "Ryuden has long legs so you kinda want to grab them don't you..." 

Reminds of the famous song "He's got legs, they know how to use them..." (Beardeddisguise...)

Edited by Jakusotsu

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If Takakeisho's Yusho from November got doubted, the same will go for a potential Shodai Yusho. Hope we'll get at least a 12-3 for the win. It will be interesting to see if Shodai can finally beat Terunofuji. 

One more win for Ura to conquer his doubts for this basho, crossing my fingers! 

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5 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Hikiwake is given when no clear winner can be discerned after an extremely long bout, despite efforts to reset it, such as multiple water breaks or torinaoshi. The last time was in 1958 Kyushu in Y1E Wakanohana I v. M2W Dewanishiki.  

Hikiwake was last used in 1974, and was extremely rare even then, with the most recent previous ones being 5 in the 60s.  I think it's still quite possible there might eventually be another, but it's rather unlikely given that they'll make them take breaks and restart from the tachi-ai.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&rowcount=2&kimarite=92&east1=on

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Btw, amazing bout today by former Hattorizakura. He stayed fighting for at least 20 seconds, and for a moment I was hoping he could get his ¿4th? win. But reality struck me hard right after :(

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In all the excitement over the final bout today (i.e., day 11), fans may not have noticed that Churanoumi handed Oho (one of Taiho's grandsons) his 8th loss.  Not a great result for the scion: makekoshi in his Juryo debut, and a significant likelihood that he will drop back down to the unsalaried ranks.  You can probably start packing up your brand new shimekomi and beautiful keshomawashi.  I wonder if he can get his old job back as Takakeisho's backup tsukebito attendant. (Shakinghead...)

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1 hour ago, Thorbjarn said:

 It will be interesting to see if Shodai can finally beat Terunofuji. 

Do you mean Asanoyama? Shodai has beaten Terunofuji four times, the most recent being July 2020.

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Completely off-topic here, but perennial makushita Nogami has been mopping the floor with jonidan rikishi after a lengthy injury.  I'm ashamed I don't know its particular name, but you know when (on a sansho-less bout) a rikishi does that slash with his right arm after a win? He can't bend his knees long enough for that.

This doesn't bode well for his future, sumo or not.

Edited by Koorifuu

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4 hours ago, dingo said:

Shodai got incredibly lucky. Neither bout was convincing from him though, so the yusho race is wide open. 

Mitakeumi seems to actually do well in the second week for a change. 4 wins in a row is quite good. :-D

The luck may run out on Shodai against the likes of Asanoyama.

Mitakeumi woke up after beating his long time rival, Shodai.  He won 4 in a row and faces Tamawashi today.  There will be 5 in a row.

 

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