Hokuseiho - Shot at a record?

[Kaminariyuki 497]

OK, the big Mongolian kid is now gone zensho yusho in his first two tournaments and is now 5-0 in sandamne. Taking one basho and a yusho at each division as he climbs the pyramid (some will say to be hitting the wall soon, I suspect). He has Denuma tomorrow, also 5-0.

To be frank, his sumo looks solid and he looks strong, but just doesn't look quick enough to have this record to me. I'm probably missing something...

The kid is up to 19-0 now. I've seen it here on SF before, but what's the record for consecutive wins on entering professional sumo?

[Asapedroryu 227]

27 by Jokoryu

[Churaumi 725]

I predict it will end in makushita. He's got decent technique for his level but still relies on size and strength too much. He's going to get bigger and stronger, but the quality of his competition will increase faster than his strength and skill.

[WAKATAKE 2,614]

Right now he is tied for 10th place. One of the people he is tied with is stablemate Ishiura. If he wins out this basho he will tie Enho and Kototenzan aka Earthquake

[Gurowake 3,875]

6 hours ago, Kaminariyuki said:

OK, the big Mongolian kid is now gone zensho yusho in his first two tournaments and is now 5-0 in sandamne. Taking one basho and a yusho at each division as he climbs the pyramid (some will say to be hitting the wall soon, I suspect). He has Denuma tomorrow, also 5-0.

To be frank, his sumo looks solid and he looks strong, but just doesn't look quick enough to have this record to me. I'm probably missing something...

The kid is up to 19-0 now. I've seen it here on SF before, but what's the record for consecutive wins on entering professional sumo?

It's somewhat random what matches people drop in the lower divisions.  Sometimes it's because there are people of similar skill levels.  Osunaarashi's first two losses in the ring were to Shimanoumi and Hidenoumi, though his initial winning streak was broken quickly due to withdrawing in his second tournament for the first two rounds.  Asanoyama lost his first match to Yutakayama, in which they paired up the first two Sd100TDs ever in Round 1, but then when there were two of them in a later basho they took a more reasonable approach and waited a few rounds to pair them, and it wasn't just how the numbers worked out.  However, there are also plenty of fluke losses that can happen against low-rankers.  Asanoyama's second loss in his debut tournament was to someone who never got above Ms39 (so far).  Tsurugisho lost his 21st match to someone who only ever was in Makushita for one basho, so that guy really lucked into the 7-0 that put him there.  

[Koorifuu 860]

20 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

It's somewhat random what matches people drop in the lower divisions.  Sometimes it's because there are people of similar skill levels.  Osunaarashi's first two losses in the ring were to Shimanoumi and Hidenoumi

You got me curious and I checked - Osunaarashi's losses were all against sekitori & eventual sekitori. In fact, up until his debilitating injury coming into 2017 - he had only lost to *one* rikishi who topped out at Juryo. Dewahayate.

I had a bit of a twilight zone moment as I saw Rikishin there and, quite frankly, I have no idea who he is. Probably the only sekitori of the last 5 years that wouldn't ring a bell to me, as I tend to follow juryo pretty closely as well. Weird.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

Hooray! Just watched the match between him and Denuma. Denuma put up a very energetic, respectable performance - furious thrusting - but Hokuseiho just managed to get rid of him. It wasn't quite clear for a few seconds there. I think he will match Enho's record, maybe go a little past it, but I don't think he'll beat Jokoryu's record or Itai's for that matter. He has been improving much in technique yes, but I am not sure how that's going to stack up against Makushita wrestlers - if he lets them get his belt like he did on the 3rd day and today, I think he won't be so lucky. I wish to be proven wrong though. I hope the early start curse isn't true and that he achieves his early ambition of getting all 6 yusho titles. Tochiazuma is the only one I know who's done that. 

 

 

[Asashosakari 18,669]

3 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

I hope the early start curse isn't true and that he achieves his early ambition of getting all 6 yusho titles. Tochiazuma is the only one I know who's done that. 

Also Haguroyama.

[Kaminariyuki 497]

Day 13 vs. Kaiseijo, also undefeated, of course. I'm not sure if there are other playoff contenders, but Hokuseiho did, indeed, look good against Denuma.

[Nantonoyama 239]

On 18/11/2020 at 00:32, John Gunning said:

Technically yes, but he lost a playoff in his 17th bout so the best start including maezumo and with no absences is still Itai. 29 straight before his first loss.

 

 

If you include playoffs then Itai has 30 (Jonidan kettei-sen, Hatsu 79)

[pricklypomegranate 730]

On 18/11/2020 at 11:50, pricklypomegranate said:

Hooray! Just watched the match between him and Denuma. Denuma put up a very energetic, respectable performance - furious thrusting - but Hokuseiho just managed to get rid of him. It wasn't quite clear for a few seconds there. I think he will match Enho's record, maybe go a little past it, but I don't think he'll beat Jokoryu's record or Itai's for that matter. He has been improving much in technique yes, but I am not sure how that's going to stack up against Makushita wrestlers - if he lets them get his belt like he did on the 3rd day and today, I think he won't be so lucky. I wish to be proven wrong though. I hope the early start curse isn't true and that he achieves his early ambition of getting all 6 yusho titles. Tochiazuma is the only one I know who's done that. 

As predicted. Congratulations to Hokuseiho for winning Sandanme with an amazing 21 rensho, tying Enho's record! Due credit must also be given to Kaiseijo, who gave a very spirited performance and almost caused the giant to topple at the tawara. Hokuseiho really needs to work on preventing people from getting his belt, because he almost lost right there. I fervently hope he can meet his senpai's records (21 rensho, and one of the fastest post-war to Juryo) and maybe surpass it (27/30 rensho, maybe fastest to Makuuchi). Master White certainly has a good eye as he has really hit the jackpot with these new talents, except maybe Senho (4-3) and especially Toma (3-4), who are looking a little green in the gills. Much encouragement to them both to join their higher-ranked stablemates in the future. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by pricklypomegranate

[Seiyashi 4,068]

At the rate Hokuseiho is going, there's even a distant shot that he might make sekitori before Hakuho retires, although his sumo appears a bit too rough for that at the moment. Would be a near miracle if he makes makuuchi and can do a dohyo-iri with Hakuho before that though, although the chances are good that he might be one of the attendants during Hakuho's danpatsu-shiki.

[Tigerboy1966 1,374]

Quite a few of the top ten should have an asterisk. ahem:

Jokoryu: had 2 playoff wins and 1 playoff defeat

Itai: had 1 play off win  (̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶l̶y̶ 2̶ a̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ d̶b̶ d̶o̶e̶s̶n̶'t̶ h̶a̶v̶e̶ t̶h̶e̶ f̶u̶l̶l̶ r̶e̶s̶u̶l̶t̶s̶ f̶r̶o̶m̶ h̶i̶s̶ s̶d̶ y̶u̶s̶h̶o̶)̶

Tochiazuma: had 3 playoff wins. He also came in half-way through his first basho and had a record of 4-0-3. He therefore had 2 basho in jk.

Oshoryu: had 3 playoff wins.

Earthquake: had at least 1 playoff win.

Enho: had 2 playoff wins

Akiseyama: had  1 playoff defeat

Edited November 20, 2020 by Tigerboy1966

[Asashosakari 18,669]

12 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Itai: had 1 play off win (possibly 2 as the db doesn't have the full results from his sd yusho)

Huh?

[Seiyashi 4,068]

I think he means the members of the 21 club may have actually won more than 21 bouts on their way there if you count playoffs. 

[Tigerboy1966 1,374]

43 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Huh?

Sorry. What I meant to indicate is that on his way to 26 wins from the start of his sumo career, Itai had an additional play-off win in Jonidan in January 1979. The results for his his 7-0 sandanme yusho in March 1979 are not given in full on sumo database, so I don't know if there was a play-off involved.

Back to Hokuseiho. He could break the record but only if he works really hard on his tachi-ai, which is, shall we say, a work in progress. There are guys at the top end of makushita who will just go in hard and low and give him none of the second chances he got today.

[Asashosakari 18,669]

1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

The results for his his 7-0 sandanme yusho in March 1979 are not given in full on sumo database, so I don't know if there was a play-off involved.

Who could he possibly have had a playoff bout with, given that he was the only sandanme rikishi with a 7-0 record in that basho?

[Tigerboy1966 1,374]

13 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Who could he possibly have had a playoff bout with, given that he was the only sandanme rikishi with a 7-0 record in that basho?

Ouch, ouch. I tapped. Release the hold. I'll edit it!

[Yokozuna Hattorizakura 149]

I think people should temper their expectations a little bit. he almost lost to Kaiseijo in that final bout. And did everyone forget that oshoryu is still stuck in upper makushita despite his identical start?

 

[Asashosakari 18,669]

1 hour ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

I think people should temper their expectations a little bit. he almost lost to Kaiseijo in that final bout. And did everyone forget that oshoryu is still stuck in upper makushita despite his identical start?

In fairness, Oshoryu is the stereotypical finished article from the collegiate assembly line, body and technique nearly as good as they'll ever be. Of course Hokuseiho's physique is also exceptional, but that he knows enough about how to use it to start 21-0 at just 19 years of age is really quite remarkable. I wouldn't be surprised if he hits the wall hard at some point as well, but I do believe that wall will be further along than it has been for Oshoryu.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

4 hours ago, Yokozuna Hattorizakura said:

I think people should temper their expectations a little bit. he almost lost to Kaiseijo in that final bout. And did everyone forget that oshoryu is still stuck in upper makushita despite his identical start?

Agree. He might very well beat Jokoryu's record, but being the next dai-Yokozuna might be hyping him up too much. He's got two things coming for him: (1) His technical abilities are quite awful, especially for a Tottori Johoku graduate - I greatly prefer his similarly sized stablemate Ishii's sumo, and (2) the curse against early rensho winners: 

Jokoryu - was a former Komusubi and currently on the Juryo yusho hunt, but not before multiple falls in disgrace because of injury. 

Itai - also former Komusubi but also unfortunate holder of a zenpai. Let's not even mention the match-fixing allegations. 

Tochiazuma II - as aforementioned, the only person to win all 6 titles in the 6BPY system, one of the best head to head records against Hakuho, but career was cut short from stroke. 

Oshoryu - similar situation to Hokuseiho, but then again, he had an existing injury before coming into sumo. 

Tokitenku - a close friend of Hakuho's, stablemate to Toyonoshima and mentor to Shodai, but passed away too soon from cancer. 

Kototenzan - just plain couldn't stand the sumo life and got kicked out (or left, not sure) 

Enho - Four consecutive make-koshi streaks. In deep suffering from shoulder/back/neck injury, and facing imminent demotion to Juryo, perhaps being relegated to an elevator rikishi for the rest of his life. 

Akiseyama - consistent Juryo performer and had literally a single Makuuchi basho which he scored 4 - 11. And has poor eyesight. 

Tsurugisho - Five consecutive make-koshi streak and not doing particularly fantastic in Juryo right now. 

So, yikes. The sumo spirits are really not with him, but I hope Hokuseiho might just break out of the curse. And yes, if he wishes to be Hakuho's contemporary (assuming that the yokozuna is staying only until Nagoya), he's got 4 basho. That means he's got to win Makushita once, maybe 5-2 or 6-1, then high double-digits in both Juryo basho (or, do the Hakuho, get the 9-6, and then 12-3 yusho). I would say that's almost impossible, but I do like surprises. Maybe bouncing around in Makushita for awhile would air the curse out a bit, and make me feel more at ease. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by pricklypomegranate

[Gurowake 3,875]

I think it's fair to say that someone who managed all 6 divisional titles and made Ozeki had a pretty good career, even if he was plagued with injuries.  Definitely a lot better than the rest of the people on that list.  I also was unaware of the stroke; I just assumed he had accumulated too many injuries given what his career was like.  I'm not sure how a stroke that young really affects people, but I imagine it might have been more of the straw that broke the camel's back than anything that by itself was career-ending.

[WAKATAKE 2,614]

53 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Itai - also former Komusubi but also unfortunate holder of the last zenpai before Oki. Let's not even mention the match-fixing allegations. 

I hate to be a stickler but the last true zenpai before Oki was Hoshitango.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_basho.aspx?r=76&b=200007

[pricklypomegranate 730]

2 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

I hate to be a stickler but the last true zenpai before Oki was Hoshitango.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_basho.aspx?r=76&b=200007

Yup, fixed, sorry. 

[Tigerboy1966 1,374]

3 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

So, yikes. The sumo spirits are really not with him, but I hope Hokuseiho might just break out of the curse

One thing in his favour is his age. Of the other men on the list, eight of them were at least 22 when they started their run. The only other teenager is the one who almost went all the way- Tochiazuma.