Seiyashi 4,087 Posted November 22, 2020 36 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said: It would seem to me that those who are trying to make their cases against rzombie's pointless arguments at this time should just give it a rest. It seems very clear to me that he is trolling this thread and unfortunately taking away from the accomplishments that Kotoshogiku has achieved over the years and not giving him the respect that is due. He is coming back with the same tired argument, although I would love to see if he does have a response for Atenzan. It's not the first time either; rzombie's arguments essentially amount to "I don't like how sumo scores work out in practice because rikishi aren't superhuman enough, records be damned", which is all the more jarring considering his alleged concern for rikishi injuries. May I suggest the rule against feeding kick in until evidence shows otherwise. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Godango 984 Posted November 23, 2020 Kotoshogiku is/was a legend. Hidenoyama oyakata will be a spectacular addition to the Kyokai. I'm saddened at the loss of the former, but ecstatic about the gain of the latter and will follow his career and his deshi with great interest. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,840 Posted November 23, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, rzombie1988 said: Don't count Takayasu or Terunofuji yet since their careers are still ongoing. I don't see Tochinoshin hitting Ozeki again but Takayasu, maybe. I'm just not super impressed or intrigued by Kotoshogiku getting 8-9 wins for few years yet rarely being a threat or a contender. Some people here clearly value that more than I do. Longevity is as much part luck as it is training or skill. I'd rather be the Baruto who had a higher ceiling that collapsed due to injuries than Kotoshogiku who was around a long time but was never in the mix. The best Ozeki usually do become Yokozuna. But average or below average Ozeki can stay Ozeki longer than they should due to the double/triple chance rule they have, I agree with your first paragraph, though we have to use the numbers we've got. Baruto looked like a potential Yokozuna from his record -- in fact his strength is like Terunofuji, who may make it all the way if his knees hold up. I did a follow-up study of current (and recent veteran) members of Makuuchi (maximum rank of Komosubi), calculating their average wins/basho while in Makuuchi. Out of 20 rikishi, 5 averaged 8 wins or better: Hokutofuji, Abi, Onosho, Meisei and Endo. Here's what I think, and maybe it's wrong ... The zero-sum game of Sumo makes it hard to stay still, and the binary choice in each match plus the odd number of matches in a basho guarantees instability. The average number of wins in the 42-man Makuuchi is always 7.5; if you literally won 8 matches every basho, you'd eventually hit Sekiwake and stay there like a moth on a screen door. If you won 7 every basho, you'd sink into Juryo and below. If you're good enough to average 9 or 10, there's always the quirk of statistics that could give you 33 in 3 basho. if you're good enough to average 11 or 12, you're headed for the rope. The big variable is age and injury. Nobody can do this forever, not even Hakuho. Kaio started out like he was headed for the rope, and maybe should have gotten it. Age finally got him, but he was still good enough to maintain his rank. I can see your point about clearing out the dead wood after awhile, but they do such a bad job of it for Yokozuna that I doubt they'd do any better with Ozeki. EDIT: I know, Juryo crossover bouts, blah, blah, I don't think it affects my point. The End. Edited November 23, 2020 by Yamanashi stickler insurance 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rzombie1988 159 Posted November 23, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, WAKATAKE said: It would seem to me that those who are trying to make their cases against rzombie's pointless arguments at this time should just give it a rest. It seems very clear to me that he is trolling this thread and unfortunately taking away from the accomplishments that Kotoshogiku has achieved over the years and not giving him the respect that is due. He is coming back with the same tired argument, although I would love to see if he does have a response for Atenzan. You and Seiyashi have done very little but harass me in this thread, with the latter taking it over to another thread now. If you don't agree with my take, that's fine. Make your point, argue your side and if all else fails, you can just stop replying. But don't you dare harass me, call me names, accuse me of things or try to bully me into changing my opinion. Edited November 23, 2020 by rzombie1988 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rzombie1988 159 Posted November 23, 2020 20 hours ago, Atenzan said: And yet the mechanics of the rank, and top-flight sumo in general, consistently make it so that whoever surpasses these thresholds of being unimpressive turns out to be a yokozuna rather than an ozeki. Since we're getting nowhere with this exchange, could you provide, say, 5 examples of ozeki (not yokozuna) you didn't find unimpressive over the last 25-30 years? And if not, allow me to make a friendly suggestion to lower your standards to more reasonable ones- you may end up enjoying sumo more that way. I'm not really disagreeing that really good Ozeki often become Yokozuna. It's not a guarantee though. Kise went 10/10/10/10/10/13/11/11/13 and had a 2 year run from Jan '15 to Jan '17 where his two weakest bashos were at 9 wins. He eventually did make it, but as we talked about elsewhere in this thread, one bad fall and it's all over. Some people here prioritize being able to get 8-9 wins for years on end and others like me would rather someone have a good year or two where they go big but then burn out for other reasons. That's a difference of opinion. I've already listed Ozeki I didn't really like that much in this thread like Goeido, Kotooshu, Kotoshogiku and the end of Kaio and Chiyotaikai. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,840 Posted November 23, 2020 28 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said: I'm not really disagreeing that really good Ozeki often become Yokozuna. It's not a guarantee though. Kise went 10/10/10/10/10/13/11/11/13 and had a 2 year run from Jan '15 to Jan '17 where his two weakest bashos were at 9 wins. He eventually did make it, but as we talked about elsewhere in this thread, one bad fall and it's all over. Some people here prioritize being able to get 8-9 wins for years on end and others like me would rather someone have a good year or two where they go big but then burn out for other reasons. That's a difference of opinion. I've already listed Ozeki I didn't really like that much in this thread like Goeido, Kotooshu, Kotoshogiku and the end of Kaio and Chiyotaikai. I get what you're saying, but my mind comes back to the fact that the kadoban process is at least clear, and it has worked among recent Ozeki who get demoted. If you think the present system is flawed, just imagine an ODC (Ozeki Deliberation Council) making pronouncements about Goeido's lack of grit or telling Kaio that he should "reflect on the meaning of his rank" or somesuch. People are still angered at Terunofuji for the henka against Kotoshogiku that lost him his rank, but at least that decision came on the dohyo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jabbamaru 166 Posted November 23, 2020 The most important thing is that The Geek was totaly awesome. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Seiyashi 4,087 Posted November 23, 2020 2 hours ago, rzombie1988 said: 21 hours ago, WAKATAKE said: It would seem to me that those who are trying to make their cases against rzombie's pointless arguments at this time should just give it a rest. It seems very clear to me that he is trolling this thread and unfortunately taking away from the accomplishments that Kotoshogiku has achieved over the years and not giving him the respect that is due. He is coming back with the same tired argument, although I would love to see if he does have a response for Atenzan. You and Seiyashi have done very little but harass me in this thread, with the latter taking it over to another thread now. If you don't agree with my take, that's fine. Make your point, argue your side and if all else fails, you can just stop replying. But don't you dare harass me, call me names, accuse me of things or try to bully me into changing my opinion. I am picking my next words very carefully, and mean all of them without them detracting from each other. This is both an apology and an apologia, in the interests of maintaining good and civil discussion. Regardless of the condition of another thread, I recognise I am out of order for extrapolating conclusions formed about one user from one thread to another, and unreservedly apologise for that. I will either take down the post in the other thread or leave it for posterity at your choice, depending on whether you wish that accusation removed or left up as evidence of my mistake. My apology notwithstanding, choosing a tribute thread to contend that Kotoshogiku wasn't a great ozeki is like showing up at a funeral and saying meh, the deceased wasn't outstanding in any way and it was high time he moved on to avoid taking up a hospital bed. There is a time and place for discussions about the standard to which ozeki should perform; a tribute thread is not that time or place. While Gagamaru didn't reach ozeki, the same arguments apply to the comments on his fighting style and mass in his tribute thread. By extension to 2, I take offence with being accused of harassment, name calling, accusing or bullying. On the available evidence i.e. the posts you made at the time I made my reply, I consider myself justified in concurring with WAKATAKE that your attempt to introduce arguments about the assessment of the quality of an ozeki amounted to trolling in the circumstances of paying tribute to Kotoshogiku on his retirement. Hence the comment on no feeding in the other thread on a discussion that was pointless under the circumstances. But see point 1 on the disposal of that particular comment. Despite no evidence of your stance having shifted in the discussion on the YDC's statement re Hakuho and Kakuryu, that post is wholly appropriate in the circumstances; it should even be further commended for clarity in stating what is fact and what is opinion. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kishinoyama 595 Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Seiyashi said: My apology notwithstanding, choosing a tribute thread to contend that Kotoshogiku wasn't a great ozeki is like showing up at a funeral and saying meh, the deceased wasn't outstanding in any way and it was high time he moved on to avoid taking up a hospital bed. There is a time and place for discussions about the standard to which ozeki should perform; a tribute thread is not that time or place. You shouldn't be apologizing because you have done nothing wrong. I stopped feeding the troll. The zombie doesn't care about facts. He makes an argument and when you counter the argument with facts, then he tries to change the subject with a different argument. I don't see his posts now unless someone quotes what he says. The statement you made above about posting in a tribute thread about Ozeki standard arguments is spot on. A tribute thread is not the place for them. It is obvious that the zombie doesn't like Kotoshogiku so why say anything in the first place? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,052 Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, rzombie1988 said: I've already listed Ozeki I didn't really like that much in this thread like Goeido, Kotooshu, Kotoshogiku and the end of Kaio and Chiyotaikai. OK, are there any Ozeki you like who didn't go on to become Yokozuna? Because your general premise of what you'd prefer in an Ozeki means that, in general, all such Ozeki you like will become Yokozuna, so I'm wondering if there's someone who somehow slipped in between. Sure, if you want to say that you only like Ozeki who are good enough to go on to Yokozuna, that's fine. But you need to understand that's basically what you're saying, because you don't seem to right now. OK, "the end of Kaio and Chiyotaikai" implies that you liked them before the end. But thus you're basically saying you simply don't like the Ozeki demotion process, which has little to do with the Ozeki themselves. Both were very good Ozeki in their time who didn't make Yokozuna, but were good enough to put up an 8-7 every other basho as their abilities declined and thus held their rank a long time. Should they have said "You know what, demote me, because there's this guy on the Internet that doesn't like the Ozeki demotion rules"? Edited November 24, 2020 by Gurowake 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rzombie1988 159 Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kishinoyama said: You shouldn't be apologizing because you have done nothing wrong. I stopped feeding the troll. The zombie doesn't care about facts. He makes an argument and when you counter the argument with facts, then he tries to change the subject with a different argument. I don't see his posts now unless someone quotes what he says. The statement you made above about posting in a tribute thread about Ozeki standard arguments is spot on. A tribute thread is not the place for them. It is obvious that the zombie doesn't like Kotoshogiku so why say anything in the first place? What facts am I missing here? Kotoshogiku was able to get 8-9 wins for a long time...just that's it. He was rarely ever the best Ozeki on the banzuke and he was rarely ever able to be in the mix for a possible title. Some people really appreciate that, I don't. This was not labeled as a Kotoshogiku lovefest only thread. If you had labelled it as such, I would not be in this thread. Edited November 24, 2020 by rzombie1988 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rzombie1988 159 Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Gurowake said: OK, are there any Ozeki you like who didn't go on to become Yokozuna? Because your general premise of what you'd prefer in an Ozeki means that, in general, all such Ozeki you like will become Yokozuna, so I'm wondering if there's someone who somehow slipped in between. Sure, if you want to say that you only like Ozeki who are good enough to go on to Yokozuna, that's fine. But you need to understand that's basically what you're saying, because you don't seem to right now. OK, "the end of Kaio and Chiyotaikai" implies that you liked them before the end. But thus you're basically saying you simply don't like the Ozeki demotion process, which has little to do with the Ozeki themselves. Both were very good Ozeki in their time who didn't make Yokozuna, but were good enough to put up an 8-7 every other basho as their abilities declined and thus held their rank a long time. Should they have said "You know what, demote me, because there's this guy on the Internet that doesn't like the Ozeki demotion rules"? I want to see Ozeki who can get into title races and maybe even win sometimes. I don't like Ozeki who just kind of hang on for years without much else going on. And Kotoshogiku had many really embarrassing losses where he would get henka'd and take action movie style falls, which doesn't bring a lot of prestige to the rank. I get why Ozeki hang around when their time is almost up - paychecks are nice, just it doesn't entertain me very much. I'd rather remember the Konishiki who was a freaking force, not the Konishiki that got too heavy and got embarrassed by people he was better than. Edited November 24, 2020 by rzombie1988 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atenzan 1,081 Posted November 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said: I want to see Ozeki who can get into title races and maybe even win sometimes. I don't like Ozeki who just kind of hang on for years without much else going on. OK, so who do you like? Can you tell us a name of an ozeki who you were satisfied by? Anyone who wasn't a yokozuna? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rzombie1988 159 Posted November 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Atenzan said: OK, so who do you like? Can you tell us a name of an ozeki who you were satisfied by? Anyone who wasn't a yokozuna? I wouldn't have thought less of Kisenosato if he never made Yokozuna for instance. I would have thought less of him if he never won a title though. Baruto was fine, Terunofuji, Kaio before he hung around too long, Konishiki before he got too fat are just some examples. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gurowake 4,052 Posted November 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said: I wouldn't have thought less of Kisenosato if he never made Yokozuna for instance. I would have thought less of him if he never won a title though. Baruto was fine, Terunofuji, Kaio before he hung around too long, Konishiki before he got too fat are just some examples. It was widely predicted that Baruto would have a good chance to make Yokozuna had he stayed uninjured. The same for Terunofuji, whose story is yet to be completed. The others you're just being wish washy on. Which, I guess is your point. You like Ozeki who are challenging to become Yokozuna, and don't like ones that hang around the rank because they fulfill the requirements, and they can transition between the two as they get older. I suppose that's reasonable, and is mainly a dislike of how easy it is to stay Ozeki. But it's certainly something to understand, that if someone who acts like you think an Ozeki should stays healthy and in top form long enough, they are 99% to make Yokozuna. You're always going to dislike ones that don't make Yokozuna because they are not going to self-demote when they can no longer regularly challenge for the Yusho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WAKATAKE 2,656 Posted November 24, 2020 Mods, I would like to respectfully request that we try to get this thread back onto the right track, because I feel it is getting derailed into an unfortunate direction away from what it was intended for 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,969 Posted November 24, 2020 7 hours ago, WAKATAKE said: Mods, I would like to respectfully request that we try to get this thread back onto the right track, because I feel it is getting derailed into an unfortunate direction away from what it was intended for You will manage on your own, I have faith in you all. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yamanashi 3,840 Posted November 24, 2020 Kotoshogiku's wins were heavily yorikiri-rich and oshidashi-poor, according to the db; also, he had a higher than normal -nage percentage, probably as a plan B when he couldn't get his opponent over the bales. The fact that he was one-dimensional doesn't detract from his greatness, just as it doesn't for, say, Takakeisho. I saw him late in his career, but the sight of this short guy bumping his opponent out when they knew what he was planning makes him a little more heroic in my eyes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 40,499 Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) (Ex-)Kotoshogiku was allowed to travel home to Yanagawa to report his intai to the mayor today o o ooo with mayor and wife, parents on the left oo longer local news clip http://www.fbs.co.jp/news/news16265172.html Edited November 25, 2020 by Akinomaki 1 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rzombie1988 159 Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Gurowake said: It was widely predicted that Baruto would have a good chance to make Yokozuna had he stayed uninjured. The same for Terunofuji, whose story is yet to be completed. The others you're just being wish washy on. Which, I guess is your point. You like Ozeki who are challenging to become Yokozuna, and don't like ones that hang around the rank because they fulfill the requirements, and they can transition between the two as they get older. I suppose that's reasonable, and is mainly a dislike of how easy it is to stay Ozeki. But it's certainly something to understand, that if someone who acts like you think an Ozeki should stays healthy and in top form long enough, they are 99% to make Yokozuna. You're always going to dislike ones that don't make Yokozuna because they are not going to self-demote when they can no longer regularly challenge for the Yusho. Yes, that sums up most of my sentiments, though it is totally possible to do 9-12 wins and not advance past Ozeki. And I totally get why someone like late career Kaio or Koto wouldn't leave once they start declining. It's hard to pass up all that cash and maybe they really just enjoy what they do. Edited November 24, 2020 by rzombie1988 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,969 Posted November 24, 2020 17 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said: And I totally get why someone like late career Kaio or Koto wouldn't leave once they start declining. It's hard to pass up all that cash and maybe they really just enjoy what they do. That of course, and the immense support they got from the fans. Even deep into his decline, the loud chants for Kaio were mesmerizing, and Kotoshogiku's appearance was highly anticipated in Fukuoka. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Akinomaki 40,499 Posted November 27, 2020 (edited) The NSK posted the intai press conference and a tribute - with a young juryo-kaku Konosuke for a makushita bout Edit: they deleted the first version and posted it again (some change maybe, same title and length, less bytes) Edited November 29, 2020 by Akinomaki 2 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites