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Kotoshogiku retires

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2 hours ago, Kishinoyama said:

Once again, you make a statement and I counter that statement with a fact. Now you have done it again. Now I am done.

He is doing it in the Gagamaru thread too, I think Covid has gotten to his head

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2 hours ago, Kishinoyama said:

Once again, you make a statement and I counter that statement with a fact. Now you have done it again. Now I am done.

I'm sure you can find a few of his 32 basho's as an Ozeki where if x or y had happened, he might have gotten a JY or a Yusho.

But I'm sure I can say the same thing for other Ozeki at a higher frequency, hence me saying he was just not that good of an Ozeki.

Edited by rzombie1988

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43 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

I don't feel the bad vibes about Giku or any other Ozeki with more than ~15 basho at that level.  Kotoshogiku lasted 32 basho as Ozeki, Goeido 33, Kotooshu 47.  Two yusho in a row will make you Yokozuna, but two MK in a row will make you Sanyaku; it seems the latter is much more likely, especially in the Asashoryu/Hakuho eras.  Kisenosato was an Ozeki for 31 basho before he became Yokozuna; he beat three Yokozuna and two Ozeki, and got a Jun-Yusho for his efforts.  I don't mind that these guys don't regularly beat Yokozuna -- if they did, they'd be Yokozuna too!

Oh, and the under 15 basho Ozeki were almost all victims of injuries; if they'd only made Yokozuna, maybe they'd still be holding their rank after taking five or six basho off.

Quality, not quantity for me.

Yes, it's easier to lose than to win. No arguments there.

Let's talk about Kisenosato. He had 12 JY's, and won 10 matches or more in 24 of 31 basho's as an Ozeki. That's what I'm looking for in Ozeki. In the same timeframe, Giku had 1 JY and only had 10 wins in 9 of 32 times.

Edited by rzombie1988

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2 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said:

Quality, not quantity for me.

Kisensato is a bad example. He had 12 JY's, and won 10 matches or more in 24 of 31 basho's as an Ozeki. That's what I'm looking for in Ozeki. In the same timeframe, Giku had 1 JY and only had 10 wins 9 out of 32 times.

I know, I know, but maybe your missing the point.  He was so good as an Ozeki that they promoted him to this super-Ozeki rank called Yokozuna.

It's really a bummer how lousy most Ozeki are; it makes it even more mysterious that there aren't ten or twenty of them, since it's so easy to do what they do.(Thinkingindepth...)

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45 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

I know, I know, but maybe your missing the point.  He was so good as an Ozeki that they promoted him to this super-Ozeki rank called Yokozuna.

It's really a bummer how lousy most Ozeki are; it makes it even more mysterious that there aren't ten or twenty of them, since it's so easy to do what they do.(Thinkingindepth...)

He didn't get Yokozuna until he won 2 titles straight, which everyone except Kakuryu had to do since Futahaguro.

8-9 win bashos as an Ozeki aren't that impressive to me. You figure, there's usually 2 Yokozuna and 4 Ozeki. That means you could lose to all of them and two others and still get your KK. That's not impressive.

Ranks don't mean anything if the requirements to get them or stay in them are low. And I'm in full favor of needing ___ wins in 2 years to stay at both Ozeki and Yokozuna ranks.

Edited by rzombie1988

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24 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said:

He didn't get Yokozuna until he won 2 titles straight,

11/2016 12-3Jun Yusho at O1W

1/2017 13-2 Yusho at O1W

1/25/2017 YOKOZUNA

3/2017 13-2 Yusho at Y2E.

 

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2 hours ago, rzombie1988 said:

I'm sure you can find a few of his 32 basho's as an Ozeki where if x or y had happened, he might have gotten a JY or a Yusho.

But I'm sure I can say the same thing for other Ozeki at a higher frequency, hence me saying he was just not that good of an Ozeki.

For him not being a good ozeki, having won at least a yusho and at least having gotten a jun-yusho, he seems to have done better than a few other ozeki that I know of while they were at the rank:

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=31

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=842

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=6599

 

You seem to be just wanting to derail this discussion by throwing Kotoshogiku under the bus, for what reason I'm not really understanding. Not only did he get a yusho and have a pretty long career compared to the average time spent at the rank, but he even got kinboshi against all his former rivals at the top, and lasted for a time post ozeki career which was above the average as well. Just what are trying to get at by saying that he was not a good ozeki?

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1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

11/2016 12-3Jun Yusho at O1W

1/2017 13-2 Yusho at O1W

1/25/2017 YOKOZUNA

3/2017 13-2 Yusho at Y2E.

 

My mistake on that one, and yes they should have waited.

Edited by rzombie1988

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48 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

For him not being a good ozeki, having won at least a yusho and at least having gotten a jun-yusho, he seems to have done better than a few other ozeki that I know of while they were at the rank:

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=31

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=842

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=6599

 

You seem to be just wanting to derail this discussion by throwing Kotoshogiku under the bus, for what reason I'm not really understanding. Not only did he get a yusho and have a pretty long career compared to the average time spent at the rank, but he even got kinboshi against all his former rivals at the top, and lasted for a time post ozeki career which was above the average as well. Just what are trying to get at by saying that he was not a good ozeki?

To quote myself:

"If we looked through Ozekis who never made Yokozuna - He was not better than Kaio, Chiyotaikai, Terunofuji, Takanonami, Kirishima, Hokutenyu, Konishiki or Tochiazuma. He was better than Kotooshu, DejimaMiyabiyama, Asashio and Musoyama, who no one would say were great Ozeki. Baruto was better, but if you want to discount him due to his record, fine. Kotomitsuki was more competitive, just not as an Ozeki, strangely. "

"Even Goeido was arguably better than him and Goeido was never really that impressive either."

"He had one Jun-Yusho and one Yusho in 32 tournaments as an Ozeki. He only reached 33 wins in 3 tournaments once as an Ozeki and only hit 10 wins in 9 of 32 basho as an Ozeki."

How can you claim he was a great ozeki when the only Ozeki he was really better than were bad Ozeki?

Edited by rzombie1988

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32 minutes ago, rzombie1988 said:

To quote myself:

"If we looked through Ozekis who never made Yokozuna - He was not better than Kaio, Chiyotaikai, Terunofuji, Takanonami, Kirishima, Hokutenyu, Konishiki or Tochiazuma. He was better than Kotooshu, Dejima,  Miyabiyama, Asashio and Musoyama, who no one would say were great Ozeki. Baruto was better, but if you want to discount him due to his record, fine. Kotomitsuki was more competitive, just not as an Ozeki, strangely. "

How can you claim he was a great ozeki when the only Ozeki he was really better than were bad Ozeki?

You are calling Terunofuji better than Kotoshogiku by your standards? I see that he stayed at the rank for 14 basho, which is less than half the time spent by Kotoshogiku at the rank. 3 JY and NO yusho. Almost every other basho was a make-koshi (including a 2-13 and 4-11 twice). Please elaborate on your thought process here. 

57 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

For him not being a good ozeki, having won at least a yusho and at least having gotten a jun-yusho, he seems to have done better than a few other ozeki that I know of while they were at the rank:

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=31

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=842

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi.aspx?r=6599

 

You seem to be just wanting to derail this discussion by throwing Kotoshogiku under the bus, for what reason I'm not really understanding. Not only did he get a yusho and have a pretty long career compared to the average time spent at the rank, but he even got kinboshi against all his former rivals at the top, and lasted for a time post ozeki career which was above the average as well. Just what are trying to get at by saying that he was not a good ozeki?

You missed some details in my post. I never called him GREAT. However I would say despite that he never overwhelmingly was able to get to the next level (just like his contemporaries Goeido, Kotooshu, Baruto) he still held his own against those who got above him such as Hakuho, Harumafuji, Kisenosato, and Kakuryu. Let's overlook his lopsided record against Hakuho, he managed a 22-30 record against Kakuryu, 21-30 record against Goeido, and had winning records against Kisenosato (36-30) and Harumafuji (33-29). Not only that, he managed to get more makuuchi wins than both Kisenosato and Harumafuji, making him the second ozeki on the top 10 list and behind Taiho of all people. That is a pretty respectable achievement in my opinon.

Edited by WAKATAKE

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20 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

You are calling Terunofuji better than Kotoshogiku by your standards? I see that he stayed at the rank for 14 basho, which is less than half the time spent by Kotoshogiku at the rank. 3 JY and NO yusho. Almost every other basho was a make-koshi (including a 2-13 and 4-11 twice). Please elaborate on your thought process here. 

You missed some details in my post. I never called him GREAT. However I would say despite that he never overwhelmingly was able to get to the next level (just like his contemporaries Goeido, Kotooshu, Baruto) he still held his own against those who got above him such as Hakuho, Harumafuji, Kisenosato, and Kakuryu. Let's overlook his lopsided record against Hakuho, he managed a 22-30 record against Kakuryu, 21-30 record against Goeido, and had winning records against Kisenosato (36-30) and Harumafuji (33-29). Not only that, he managed to get more makuuchi wins than both Kisenosato and Harumafuji, making him the second ozeki on the top 10 list and behind Taiho of all people. That is a pretty respectable achievement in my opinon.

Terunofuji won 2 titles. Simple as that. I'd rather have Terunofuji's two titles than Kotoshogiku's longevity.  Terunofuji is also still active with many years left.

I explained my thoughts on longevity earlier. There's some skill for sure, but there's only so much you can do about injuries and just bad luck. It's just not a fair stat because things happen. I think win averages and win totals per year are better stats to work with in sumo. Win/loss totals vs various wrestlers is also likely a good stat.

Edited by rzombie1988

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7 hours ago, rzombie1988 said:

Let's talk about Kisenosato. He had 12 JY's, and won 10 matches or more in 24 of 31 basho's as an Ozeki. That's what I'm looking for in Ozeki. 

So, a yokozuna? 

Do you know who the last ozeki was who averaged 10 wins per 15 makuuchi bouts and didn't make yokozuna? I didn't. It's good old Tachihikari, who had a briefish tenure at the rank before getting apparently injured in 1926.

An ozeki is someone who has won 32 or 33 of 45 bouts against the top 16 rikishi in 3 consecutive basho (very impressive) and now called to sustain a diet of winning a simple majority of his bouts against the top 16 rikishi. Kotoshougiku did exactly that for the best part of a decade and won a yusho in the process against tough opposition. I find that extremely impressive. 

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8 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

11/2016 12-3Jun Yusho at O1W

1/2017 13-2 Yusho at O1W

1/25/2017 YOKOZUNA

3/2017 13-2 Yusho at Y2E.

 

You should know by now that the zombie ignores facts. :-D

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1 hour ago, Kishinoyama said:

You should know by now that the zombie ignores facts. :-D

When Hakuho retires, there'll be a line somewhere about "he only won 44 yusho because his opposition sucked, that's not impressive".

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4 hours ago, Atenzan said:

So, a yokozuna? 

Do you know who the last ozeki was who averaged 10 wins per 15 makuuchi bouts and didn't make yokozuna? I didn't. It's good old Tachihikari, who had a briefish tenure at the rank before getting apparently injured in 1926.

An ozeki is someone who has won 32 or 33 of 45 bouts against the top 16 rikishi in 3 consecutive basho (very impressive) and now called to sustain a diet of winning a simple majority of his bouts against the top 16 rikishi. Kotoshougiku did exactly that for the best part of a decade and won a yusho in the process against tough opposition. I find that extremely impressive. 

One thing I didn't mention, because I thought it was obvious, is that an Ozeki never fights against anyone below ~M4.

During his Ozeki run, Giku only had about 8 double digit basho; we should have swapped him for a guy who had ~ 12 during that period: Tochiozan, who had two 12-3 basho! [from M4 and M5].  Heck, if you want 11's and 12's and 13's, get Aoiyama in his prime; he was deadly from below M6.

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4 hours ago, Atenzan said:

So, a yokozuna? 

Do you know who the last ozeki was who averaged 10 wins per 15 makuuchi bouts and didn't make yokozuna? I didn't. It's good old Tachihikari, who had a briefish tenure at the rank before getting apparently injured in 1926.

An ozeki is someone who has won 32 or 33 of 45 bouts against the top 16 rikishi in 3 consecutive basho (very impressive) and now called to sustain a diet of winning a simple majority of his bouts against the top 16 rikishi. Kotoshougiku did exactly that for the best part of a decade and won a yusho in the process against tough opposition. I find that extremely impressive. 

As I said, I'm not very impressed with only grabbing 8 or 9 wins and that's because you could theoretically lose to every other Yokozuna/Ozeki and someone else and still get the KK.

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20 hours ago, rzombie1988 said:

He only reached 33 wins in 3 tournaments once as an Ozeki. I don't find that very impressive either.

If we looked through Ozekis who never made Yokozuna - He was not better than Kaio, Chiyotaikai, Terunofuji, Takanonami, Kirishima, Hokutenyu, Konishiki or Tochiazuma

Of those that have already retired, wins per 15 makuuchi bouts:

Kaiou- 9.03

Chiyotaikai- 8.97

Takanonami- 8.67

Kirishima- 7.58

Hokuten'yuu- 9.08

Konishiki- 8.66

Tochiazuma- 9.3

 

Looks like a hell of a lot of doing an "unimpressive" 8 or 9 wins to me. Kotoshougiku had 8.21 himself, 8.46 at the time of his demotion. Was he a below-average ozeki? Probably. But he wasn't the worst one, and he merited the rank, and even reaching it is, for me, impressive. 

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17 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Not only that, he managed to get more makuuchi wins than both Kisenosato and Harumafuji, making him the second ozeki on the top 10 list and behind Taiho of all people. That is a pretty respectable achievement in my opinon.

I feel called upon to say that he was able to do that because he was able to drop down from Ozeki and hang around for a while longer. Similar number of wins but he got there by having 168 more losses than Kisenosato and 248 more than Harumafuji.

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8 hours ago, rzombie1988 said:

As I said, I'm not very impressed with only grabbing 8 or 9 wins and that's because you could theoretically lose to every other Yokozuna/Ozeki and someone else and still get the KK.

I'm not very impressed with anyone who can't win 50 Yusho in their career.  I mean, you have from when you're 15 to around 35, that's 120 basho.  Why shouldn't someone win 50 of them?  That's less than half!

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Hey Rikishi!  Are you stuck down at M5e and thinking you'll never make Ozeki?  Just follow my simple 4-basho plan and you'll be drinking out of a big sake cup and making PR tours with the top guys!

Basho 1: 9-6; you have a better than even chance of coming out at M1.  Now's where you start your Ozeki run.

Basho 2: 10-5; there's a 75% chance you'll make Komosubi, but you might get lucky and become a shin-Sekiwake!

Basho 3: 11-4; if you aren't already a Sekiwake, you will be now!  And you're one step away from your goal.

Basho 4: 12-3; you've got 33 wins in the last three basho; you, your Oyakata and your Okamisan are meeting with a couple of stiffs from the NSK and you have to remember your 4-kanji slogan.  Then it's parties with important people and practicing your "hinkaku look" for the press.

I know what you're thinking: "Hey, Yamanashi, they won't let a guy in with 33 wins in 3 basho starting from M1!"  Well, they'll let you start at M2, am I right Terunofuji?  From here on out it's stay healthy, avoid kadoban, and start banking those Ozeki paychecks (use your fat kensho stash for buying rounds for your tsukebito).

Remember, 4 bashos of Hell for a lifetime of esteem and a kabu of your own.  What are you waiting for?

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On 21/11/2020 at 12:30, Atenzan said:

Of those that have already retired, wins per 15 makuuchi bouts:

Kaiou- 9.03

Chiyotaikai- 8.97

Takanonami- 8.67

Kirishima- 7.58

Hokuten'yuu- 9.08

Konishiki- 8.66

Tochiazuma- 9.3

 

Looks like a hell of a lot of doing an "unimpressive" 8 or 9 wins to me. Kotoshougiku had 8.21 himself, 8.46 at the time of his demotion. Was he a below-average ozeki? Probably. But he wasn't the worst one, and he merited the rank, and even reaching it is, for me, impressive. 

Again, for the 3rd or 4th time, I'm just not a fan of Ozeki hanging on with 8-9 win bashos. I just don't think it's impressive to be able to lose 6-7 times and still keep your rank. I think that's a lot of losing for the 2nd best rank in sumo

Kaio had a really good run for a while and should have been made Yokozuna twice, and would be by today's standards, Then he made the rank look bad by hanging on for 5 years when he shouldn't of. 5 Titles, 6 JY's as an Ozeki. Great Ozeki up until 2005.

Chioyotaikai shouldn't have been able to keep his rank from 2008 on. 2 titles though and 7JY's as an Ozeki.

Takanonami has a really weird history of results, with nice highpoints mixed with some random bad basho in between. He was better though that Kotoshogiku, and during a much harder time period. 2 Yushos, 7 JY's as an Ozeki. A good Ozeki.

Kirishima's record fit his demotion/promotion status.  1 Yusho, 4 JY's as an Ozeki. Not a strong Ozeki either.

Hokutenyu should have been demoted in 1986, but his 1988-1990 campaign was good. 1 title at Sekiwake, 1 title at Ozeki, 2 Jun-Yusho as an Ozeki. Not a strong Ozeki either.

Konishiki was dropped a few months late. 3 Yusho, 4 JY's as an Ozeki. A good Ozeki.

Tochiazuma should have been dropped from 2002-2003 and in 2004 after his title win. He retired in-time. 3 Yusho, 1 JY as an Ozeki. A good Ozeki.

Kotoshogiku should have been dropped in 2015 and should have been dropped in 2016. 1 Yusho, 1 JY as an Ozeki.

 

Edited by rzombie1988

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Wins per basho while Ozeki:

Kaio 8.1; Chiyotaikai 7.9; Musoyama 6.9; Tochiazuma 6.9; Dejima 8.3; Miyabiyama 7.1; Kotomitsuki 8.3; Kotoshogiku 8.0; Kotooshu 8.0; Baruto 8.9; Goeido 7.9; Takayasu 7.5; Tochinoshin 5.0; Terunofuji 6.9; Takakeisho 7.9

Harumafuji wins/basho: Ozeki 9.7, Yokozuna 9.5

Kakuryu wins/basho: Ozeki 9.9, Yokozuna 6.8

Kisenosato wins/basho: Ozeki 10.7, Yokozuna 3.0

Hakuho wins/basho: Ozeki 10.4, Yokozuna 11.2 [that's why he's the GOAT]

Yokozuna totals include kyujo, just like the Ozeki.

So 1) Kotoshogiku looks to be slightly above average in this metric; 2) you can hang in surprisingly long at Ozeki without averaging a kachi-koshi per basho; 3) I have uncovered the heretofore obscure but powerful theory that

THE BEST OZEKI EVENTUALLY BECOME YOKOZUNA.

Edited by Yamanashi
typo city
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2 hours ago, rzombie1988 said:

Again, for the 3rd or 4th time, I'm just not a fan of Ozeki hanging on with 8-9 win bashos. I just don't think it's impressive to be able to lose 6-7 times and still keep your rank. I think that's a lot of losing for the 2nd best rank in sumo

And yet the mechanics of the rank, and top-flight sumo in general, consistently make it so that whoever surpasses these thresholds of being unimpressive turns out to be a yokozuna rather than an ozeki. 

Since we're getting nowhere with this exchange, could you provide, say, 5 examples of ozeki (not yokozuna) you didn't find unimpressive over the last 25-30 years? And if not, allow me to make a friendly suggestion to lower your standards to more reasonable ones- you may end up enjoying sumo more that way. 

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1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

Wins per basho while Ozeki:

Kaio 8.1; Chiyotaikai 7.9; Musoyama 6.9; Tochiazuma 6.9; Dejima 8.3; Miyabiyama 7.1; Kotomitsuki 8.3; Kotoshogiku 8.0; Kotooshu 8.0; Baruto 8.9; Goeido 7.9; Takayasu 7.5; Tochinoshin 5.0; Terunofuji 6.9; Takakeisho 7.9

Harumafuji wins/basho: Ozeki 9.7, Yokozuna 9.5

Kakuryu wins/basho: Ozeki 9.9, Yokozuna 6.8

Kisenosato wins/basho: Ozeki 10.7, Yokozuna 3.0

Hakuho wins/basho: Ozeki 10.4, Yokozuna 11.2 [that's why he's the GOAT]

Yokozuna totals include kyujo, just like the Ozeki.

So 1) Kotoshogiku looks to be slightly above average in this metric; 2) you can hang in surprisingly long at Ozeki without averaging a kachi-koshi per basho; 3) I have uncovered the heretofore obscure but powerful theory that

THE BEST OZEKI EVENTUALLY BECOME YOKOZUNA.

Don't count Takayasu or Terunofuji yet since their careers are still ongoing. I don't see Tochinoshin hitting Ozeki again but Takayasu, maybe.

I'm just not super impressed or intrigued by Kotoshogiku getting 8-9 wins for few years yet rarely being a threat or a contender. Some people here clearly value that more than I do. Longevity is as much part luck as it is training or skill. I'd rather be the Baruto who had a higher ceiling that collapsed due to injuries than Kotoshogiku who was around a long time but was never in the mix.

The best Ozeki usually do become Yokozuna. But average or below average Ozeki can stay Ozeki longer than they should due to the double/triple chance rule they have,

Edited by rzombie1988

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It would seem to me that those who are trying to make their cases against rzombie's pointless arguments at this time should just give it a rest. It seems very clear to me that he is trolling this thread and unfortunately taking away from the accomplishments that Kotoshogiku has achieved over the years and not giving him the respect that is due. He is coming back with the same tired argument, although I would love to see if he does have a response for Atenzan. 

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