Kaminariyuki

Nokozuna again?

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Hakuhou is probably in. Kakuryuu is probably out.

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Hokuho enthusiastically participated in the group degeiko sessions. I have to believe that was a positive sign concerning his participation. 

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2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Hakuhou is probably in. Kakuryuu is probably out.

I hope the lizard-people will show some mercy and finally ask for his intai papers. I thought his oyakata said it's a "do or die" basho. If he goes kyujo even before the basho starts, please axe him.

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Just now, Benihana said:

I hope the lizard-people will show some mercy and finally ask for his intai papers. I thought his oyakata said it's a "do or die" basho. If he goes kyujo even before the basho starts, please axe him.

The "do or die basho', much like Kisenosato at the time, is in regard to the next basho he actually shows up to.

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1 minute ago, Kintamayama said:

The "do or die basho', much like Kisenosato at the time, is in regard to the next basho he actually shows up to.

Well, frankly i don't care anymore. I like Kakuryu. Taken into account with whom he had to compete, he had a sensational career. But now he just blocks one spot in makuuchi. It's time to say goodbye.

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2 hours ago, Benihana said:

But now he just blocks one spot in makuuchi.

Absolutely: his failure to retire prevented that exciting young talent Akiseyama from claiming his rightful place in the top division.

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24 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Absolutely: his failure to retire prevented that exciting young talent Akiseyama from claiming his rightful place in the top division.

Tell that Akiseyama's wallet.

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13 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

The "do or die basho', much like Kisenosato at the time, is in regard to the next basho he actually shows up to.

13 hours ago, Benihana said:

Well, frankly i don't care anymore. I like Kakuryu. Taken into account with whom he had to compete, he had a sensational career. But now he just blocks one spot in makuuchi. It's time to say goodbye.

I sincerely hope that what Kintamayama says is true - Kakuryu is certainly in no condition to compete. I have nothing against him, but certainly am not a diehard fan. It's not that he doesn't have charisma, it's just that I feel he is a very private person and not very easy for some one on the outside to know. However, technique wise, although greatly overshadowed by Hakuho, you cannot deny that Kakuryu is one of the best in his generation. It would be a great loss for sumo if Kakuryu didn't continue to coach - I think we have to take that into account. He doesn't seem like the ultra violent and cruel type and genuinely has many things to teach his (perhaps) future deshi. We can certainly have more Kakuryus in the oyakata world, and a few less of The Oyakatas That Shall Not Be Named. (Laughing...)

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12 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

technique wise, although greatly overshadowed by Hakuho, you cannot deny that Kakuryu is one of the best in his generation

I would judge Kakuryu by the way Hakuho approached their matches. Since Harumafuji retired he was the only one that a fully-fit Hakuho regarded as a worthy adversary and the only man he wasn't embarrassed to lose to. You could see it in his eyes, in his demeanour before the bout as if he was thinking "this one is serious, no funny business, no dicking around, I just need to beat you." Kakuryu wasn't a great yokozuna, or even a particularly good one, but he was a worthy of the rank. Apologies for the use of past tense, but, well...

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Every time I see this thread, Ann Wilson is singing that song in my head.

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Kakuryu is not bad at all. Until now, he has makekoshi to 6 rikishi (with more than 3 meetings), who are Asashoryu, Hakuho,  Kisenosato, Harumafuji, and 3 retired ozeki plus 1 below ozeki. In the current banzuke, he only makekoshi to Hakuho. He has 6 yusho under his belt, no shame record in Hakuho era.

Edited by Dapeng
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6 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I would judge Kakuryu by the way Hakuho approached their matches. Since Harumafuji retired he was the only one that a fully-fit Hakuho regarded as a worthy adversary and the only man he wasn't embarrassed to lose to. You could see it in his eyes, in his demeanour before the bout as if he was thinking "this one is serious, no funny business, no dicking around, I just need to beat you." Kakuryu wasn't a great yokozuna, or even a particularly good one, but he was a worthy of the rank. Apologies for the use of past tense, but, well...

Whether you love or hate him, Hakuho is a sumo phenomenon and emphatically not a representation of the norm - the worth of a rikishi should not be judged in relation to him. I think we really have to look at sumo as a whole to judge Kakuryu, whom I think is a better than average yokozuna. If you look at the amount of yusho won, the big kahuna yokozuna only seems to be a recent trend. If you look at the 6BPY system, post-1938 to present, Kakuryu's got most of them beat in terms of yusho, longevity and some say technique, especially in the presence of two mega, extremely large, family size kahunas - Asashoryu and Hakuho. Also, considering his achievements, the amount of knowledge and expertise he can impart and the impact on his career and the lives of his wife and kids (they go to school in Japan) on the line, to ask him to quit when Kisenosato sat 7 basho out is quite a travesty to me. 

Edited by pricklypomegranate
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Or one could argue Kisenosato used up all the YDC's patience, and they're not quite as willing to extend their largesse to a foreign yokozuna. Or they've been sidelined so long because of COVID, they want to come out swinging, kicking ass and taking names (almost literally). I like Kakuryu around as well - he's a much needed balance in more ways than one to Hakuho atop the banzuke, and his achievements are still impressive whether in isolation or moderated against Hakuho's -  but I really fear the worst for him this time; if he doesn't show up in November and flops in January it might well be outright intai.

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8 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Every time I see this thread, Ann Wilson is singing that song in my head.

What, has Kakuryu recently come across a woman he had a one-night stand with a few years ago and realised the kid with her is his? 

Sorry, I had to Google 'Ann Wilson', and All I want to do is make love to you is the first one that sprang to mind...

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Kakuryu knows the writing is on the wall. I believe he's only hanging on so he can get his citizenship sorted out.

He's a yokozuna, an amazing achievement. He forced his way there during Hakuho's dominance - and he also had Harumafuji to contend with.

So he's not a dai-yokozuna, so what? Very few are (and Hakuho is in a class of his own that effectively puts him beyond comparison).

When Kakuryu finally walks away, he can do so with pride.

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3 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

What, has Kakuryu recently come across a woman he had a one-night stand with a few years ago and realised the kid with her is his? 

Sorry, I had to Google 'Ann Wilson', and All I want to do is make love to you is the first one that sprang to mind...

---

Kakuryu knows the writing is on the wall. I believe he's only hanging on so he can get his citizenship sorted out.

He's a yokozuna, an amazing achievement. He forced his way there during Hakuho's dominance - and he also had Harumafuji to contend with.

So he's not a dai-yokozuna, so what? Very few are (and Hakuho is in a class of his own that effectively puts him beyond comparison).

When Kakuryu finally walks away, he can do so with pride.

"You gonna burn, burn, burn, burn, burn it to the wick ... Ooh, Nokozuna"

 

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i support the following rule...

as a yokozuna with at least a few yusho under the belt, you should be allowed to keep your rank if u had at least one kk (double-digit strongly preferred) during the last 5 ba-show... 

if a injury problem is longer-lasting, i go for three kk out of 12 ba-show (2yrs basically)

i just counted the last 24, Kakuryu had 11kk, all were double-digit.

Look at the last 15 ba-show, he had 3 Yusho plus 2 Jun-yusho.

-> stellar numbers, no reason to ask him to retire.... yet

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It's arguably time for the NSK to look in to adjusting the 'citizen at time of intai' rule, to say 'citizen at time of acquiring a kabu'. This would give a yokozuna 5 years and an ozeki 3 years to sort out their citizenship, which seems a just reward for achieving such an esteemed rank.

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Since the introduction of the yusho system in 1909, 111 different individuals have won the yusho. Kakuryu ranks 21st in a five way tie with four other yokozuna. He's done a lot better than most other yokozuna. Even active NSK leadership members Shibatayama, Isegahama and Araiso have less yusho than him. Kakuryu as a yokozuna can still stay on in the NSK for five years using his name as an oyakata, the thing that's stumping him is the citizenship. Something's going on behind the scenes here.

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2 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

It's arguably time for the NSK to look in to adjusting the 'citizen at time of intai' rule, to say 'citizen at time of acquiring a kabu'. This would give a yokozuna 5 years and an ozeki 3 years to sort out their citizenship, which seems a just reward for achieving such an esteemed rank.

I'm not sure that that sorts out the problem. It's a subtle distinction, but the rule specifically is that you have to be a Japanese citizen to join the NSK. Whether you hold one of the 105 kabu or are using your shikona under the jun-toshiyori system, you are still a member of the NSK at that point and you have to be a citizen before you may do so. Besides, Kakuryu's particular problem perhaps has more to do with particularly Mongolian quirks of the citizenship surrender than acquiring Japanese citizenship in general. In addition, I don't see the NSK having any incentive to relax the rule; the counter argument is going to be that if you want to be an oyakata, you'd better show your commitment early by taking up citizenship (like Tomozuna, ex-Kyokutenho) and not wait till the very last minute.

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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

... the counter argument is going to be that if you want to be an oyakata, you'd better show your commitment early by taking up citizenship (like Tomozuna, ex-Kyokutenho) and not wait till the very last minute.

If the reports are correct that Kakuryu started his citizenship application around 5 years ago, he can't be accused of leaving it until the very last minute.

I believe it was quite reasonable for him to expect the process to be over and done with a lot sooner than now. Someone's dragging their heels, but it doesn't appear to be Kakuryu.

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I wasn't following sumo at the time but looking at his career record I wonder if Kotooshu/Naruto went through something similar to Kakuryu. He wasn't really threatening to win anything in the last few years of his career, and was repeatedly pulling out of basho with injury but just kept limping along. As soon as he got his citizenship he was out of there.

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

if you want to be an oyakata, you'd better show your commitment early by taking up citizenship

Musashimaru/Musashigawa I notice got his in 1996, seven years before he retired. I think that's the kind of thing they are looking for.

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Or let's flip it around and put it this way - to the YDC, dragging it out on the banzuke because of citizenship delays is no excuse for what they consider to be a series of lackluster performances from Kakuryu.

We as fans can argue about whether he should be given equal treatment to Kisenosato and whether he's effectively being discriminated against, but the YDC's statements are definitely tinged with some hostility, and they are to a certain extent within their rights to ignore the fact that Kakuryu would probably retire earlier if he already had his citizenship. In the very best Confucian tradition of filial piety, one could interpret Kakuryu's recent disclosure that Izutsu wanted him to succeed to the Izutsu name and heya as a plea to the YDC to be allowed to do right by his deceased shisho, but there's been silence on their end so far. 

Regarding the reports about Kakuryu's citizenship, I'm not sure what the process for surrendering Mongolian citizenship is, but I've seen a potentially-conflicting report from a Mongolian news outlet that claims that Kakuryu only formally applied to the Mongolian president to surrender his citizenship late last year. I hope for his sake that that was a formality nearing the end of the process, because he really hasn't got much time left.

 

Edited by Seiyashi

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5 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

If the reports are correct that Kakuryu started his citizenship application around 5 years ago, he can't be accused of leaving it until the very last minute.

3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Or let's flip it around and put it this way - to the YDC, dragging it out on the banzuke because of citizenship delays is no excuse for what they consider to be a series of lackluster performances from Kakuryu.

We as fans can argue about whether he should be given equal treatment to Kisenosato and whether he's effectively being discriminated against, but the YDC's statements are definitely tinged with some hostility, and they are to a certain extent within their rights to ignore the fact that Kakuryu would probably retire earlier if he already had his citizenship. In the very best Confucian tradition of filial piety, one could interpret Kakuryu's recent disclosure that Izutsu wanted him to succeed to the Izutsu name and heya as a plea to the YDC to be allowed to do right by his deceased shisho, but there's been silence on their end so far. 

Regarding the reports about Kakuryu's citizenship, I'm not sure what the process for surrendering Mongolian citizenship is, but I've seen a potentially-conflicting report from a Mongolian news outlet that claims that Kakuryu only formally applied to the Mongolian president to surrender his citizenship late last year. I hope for his sake that that was a formality nearing the end of the process, because he really hasn't got much time left.

 

I think I made a post which stated that Hakuho took 5 years to finish his process, Kakuryu on his 3rd year. But yes, according to reports, the problem seems to be on the Mongolian side and not the Japanese side. If the story of Kakuryu only formally applying for severance last year is true, I think that was incredibly foolish, and he will have to take that aspect of responsibility. Nevertheless, I share everyone's wish that Kakuryu is nearing the end and can buy enough time to reach there. 

I understand that the YDC has only advisory power but they were specifically employed to be arbiters of yokozuna decency and dignity - their hostility and hypocrisy damages their legitimacy. Their silence on Kakuryu's disclosure about Izutsu is deafening. I haven't been watching long and will readily admit my ignorance but my general sentiment is that the younger Japanese sumo fans (and especially international audiences), whom the Kyokai has worked so hard to gain and retain (with their increased and improved media presence) are also not exactly jiving with the YDC and their decisions. I hope that the new rijicho advisory council being set up is more progressive (what with their agenda with the internationalisation of sumo) and formalises the rules regarding administrative matters kabu and heya inheritance and setup (but not necessarily dohyo rules, the ambiguity of it still gives sumo its uniqueness and charm). How would you guys formalise kabu/heya inheritance? 

Edited by pricklypomegranate

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