Nokozuna again?

[Dapeng 231]

4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Regarding the reports about Kakuryu's citizenship, I'm not sure what the process for surrendering Mongolian citizenship is, but I've seen a potentially-conflicting report from a Mongolian news outlet that claims that Kakuryu only formally applied to the Mongolian president to surrender his citizenship late last year.

Any other country has such a law that you have to obtain an agreement from your home country before you can apply for citizenship from another country? 

[Gurowake 3,485]

5 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Regarding the reports about Kakuryu's citizenship, I'm not sure what the process for surrendering Mongolian citizenship is, but I've seen a potentially-conflicting report from a Mongolian news outlet that claims that Kakuryu only formally applied to the Mongolian president to surrender his citizenship late last year. I hope for his sake that that was a formality nearing the end of the process, because he really hasn't got much time left.

 

As I've said before, I think moving into a heya that actually has many other rikishi in it has caused him to think that he would do well as a coach.  When there was only 1 other rikishi in his heya, I can see how he didn't really think about it. 

[Kintamayama 40,739]

If I remember correctly, the YDC applied a lot of pressure (friendly pressure, the worst kind..) on Kisenosato as well towards the end, and although they don't have any executive power, their constant nagging has its influence on his Oyakata, who in turn gets nudged  by other Oyakatas, resulting in the "This is your do or die basho" utterances, which can and do bring about intais, IIRC. 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Kintamayama

[Yamanashi 2,965]

Kotooshu was an Ozeki, and managed to clear kadoban 4 times before the shoulder injury (involving a fracture?) made it impossible to continue.  He received citizenship the same month he failed to regain Ozeki status.

Both Kotooshu and Hakuho married Japanese women, so there is obviously personal as well as professional commitment there.

This question is for the Eldarin on the Forum: Does anyone know if there was even a breath of a chance that Asashoryu would have applied for Japanese citizenship?

[WAKATAKE 2,365]

13 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Both Kotooshu and Hakuho married Japanese women, so there is obviously personal as well as professional commitment there.

This definitely helps. My uncle married a Japanese national, so when he was trying to move the family from Australia back to Japan, it didn't take him long to get residence since he was applying as a dependent of his wife.

[Benevolance 2,271]

So...if Kakuryu marries your uncle, he can get residence applying as a dependent of the dependent of your uncle's wife. 

[Kintamayama 40,739]

Kakuryuu out.

[Tigerboy1966 1,019]

8 hours ago, Benevolance said:

So...if Kakuryu marries your uncle

Sorry, but same-sex marriage is not recognised in Japan.

[Shinobi Steve 146]

3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Kakuryuu out.

I don't think anyone will be surprised. What little sliver of hope I had was crushed when I saw the NSK footage of training at his heya yesterday. He certainly did not look like someone preparing for a tournament. 

[code_number3 634]

Another nokozuna basho (?)

Makuuchi・Juryo

the latest news as of November 6

East Yokozuna Hakuho （Miyagino Beya）	has withdrawn the 1st Day of the November Tournament.

Copied at 11.35 JST, no Kakuryu on this list and day 1-2 torikumis are still not released

[Gurowake 3,485]

I just checked the Japanese version to be sure, and it has the same thing.

 

東横綱 白鵬

（宮城野部屋）

初日から休場いたします。

[Asojima 2,839]

Haku, Kaku and Kotoyuki and (of course) Abi are now listed as kyujo on the English site.

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Asojima

[Kishinoyama 493]

Well, that is some sad news but not entirely unexpected. Hakuho did have surgery. No need to hurry back. 

 

[Swami 244]

Kitanoumi was harshly criticised for his many withdrawals in the two and a half years leading to his retirement, but nothing compares to the way Hakuho and Kakuryu have acted, almost shamelessly.  Kakuryu should definitely have retired already, both need to call it quits in January if they don't show or can't make it through the first week.

Hanging on for a Olympic Games is not a reasonable excuse for dragging out a career.

 

Swami

[Tigerboy1966 1,019]

1 hour ago, Swami said:

nothing compares to the way Hakuho and Kakuryu have acted

That's not true. Many yokozuna have had lots of injury withdrawals towards the end of their careers: Onokuni, Hokutoumi, Musashimaru, Takanohana, Wakanohana, Kisenosato...

[Philioyamfugi 378]

I'm kinda glad Hak is out too. I'm hoping for an Ozeki show down with the new generation. ITs time for one of these guys to step up and get the rope.

[dada78641 853]

Am I the only one who's just not bothered one bit by a yokozuna taking multiple basho off? Let them do it. I wish there was a better solution for wrestlers without the privilege of doing so since a lot are being forced into destroying their bodies and shortening their careers.

The last three basho Kakuryu fought to a finish, he came in second twice and won once. He's still a true yokozuna if his body is in decent shape. If we can get some more good tournaments from him in exchange for him taking some time off, I say that's fine!

[Seiyashi 3,458]

2 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

Am I the only one who's just not bothered one bit by a yokozuna taking multiple basho off? Let them do it. I wish there was a better solution for wrestlers without the privilege of doing so since a lot are being forced into destroying their bodies and shortening their careers.

The last three basho Kakuryu fought to a finish, he came in second twice and won once. He's still a true yokozuna if his body is in decent shape. If we can get some more good tournaments from him in exchange for him taking some time off, I say that's fine!

I think the real question is how far they can stretch it, and the unlucky thing is that both of them are doing it at the same time, for external reasons, with no replacement imminent, so the spotlight gets cast on them both quite harshly. It's not quite a Takanohana or Kisenosato where both are sitting out in the explicit hope of recovery; it's fairly obvious both of them are stalling for time. I don't think the YDC would be nowhere near this uppity if Kakuryu had done it for three basho with Hakuho still active, Asanoyama gets promoted and Kakuryu retires, then Hakuho does it for three basho and Shodai gets promoted, and then Hakuho retires.

Having two basho in a row missing your biggest stars who are twinkling quite hard and not shining all the time is quite galling, especially for people whose incidental contact with sumo is through media coverage of the yokozuna. Put it another way, if you heard there was a charity match in your favourite sport coming to town, but the team's stars weren't playing, you would be a lot less inclined to show up. 

While I agree Kakuryu has shown himself to still be capable of the numbers the last time he took part, the more basho he takes off, the less plausible that argument becomes, since it becomes clearer and clearer that he can't do that level of sumo with the injuries he's carrying. I'm not too bothered about the two of them taking this basho off also, because it gives the youngsters a chance to get their heads in gear without getting thrashed by Hakuho (see Hakuho v Kiribayama in July for example; Kiribayama damn near jumped himself backwards off the dohyo in awe). But if they both also take January off and don't show up for keiko in March then I'll be getting a bit uncomfortable too.

[Highway 45]

2 hours ago, dada78641 said:

Am I the only one who's just not bothered one bit by a yokozuna taking multiple basho off? Let them do it. I wish there was a better solution for wrestlers without the privilege of doing so since a lot are being forced into destroying their bodies and shortening their careers.

The last three basho Kakuryu fought to a finish, he came in second twice and won once. He's still a true yokozuna if his body is in decent shape. If we can get some more good tournaments from him in exchange for him taking some time off, I say that's fine!

My problem with it is that in the minds of some it may cast a shadow over the basho, and whoever wins it will get a "good job on winning, but it's not quite as impressive as there were no yokozuna involved" - which is absurdly unfair to the winner and all others who do well this basho. I'm not necessarily going to 'blame' injured wrestlers for being out, but at the same time keeping yourself injury-free is indeed part of one's overall performance and legacy. Again, everyone can suffer an injury here and there, and I'm not saying wrestlers should rush coming back in, but at the end of the day those that do participate and do well deserve total and complete 100% laudations for their success, because they answered the challenge while others did not. Simple as. 

So Kakuryu....he always deserves respect for making yokozuna of course, but unfortunately there should always be a heavy asterisk next to his name noting that he did not perform well as a yokozuna. If your body is too often injured, it is not that different from a case of always showing up but performing poorly. You are not being successful, and that's that.

Hakuho obviously is the exception to everything because of just how legendary his success to date is....but honestly if you are only completing one or to basho per year and there is no explicit reason to believe you will get much better, maybe it's best to retire.

 

[Seiyashi 3,458]

1 hour ago, Highway said:

So Kakuryu....he always deserves respect for making yokozuna of course, but unfortunately there should always be a heavy asterisk next to his name noting that he did not perform well as a yokozuna. If your body is too often injured, it is not that different from a case of always showing up but performing poorly. You are not being successful, and that's that.

He's not as bad as some historical yokozuna, including Onokuni, who only managed one or two yusho after their promotion. But the longer he drags it out - not helped by his citizenship holdup - the more he dents his legacy, agreed.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,000]

If someone puts an asterisk next to kakuryus name I would remove it. All 3 of the yokozuna who ascended during Hakuho's reign deserve special consideration since the task is especially daunting. Kakuryu probably has the most vanilla sumo out of the 3 and often falls into a few bad habits so is an easy target of criticism but has gotten it done in an era where very very few rikishi had more than 1 championship to their name. 

[Swami 244]

5 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

That's not true. Many yokozuna have had lots of injury withdrawals towards the end of their careers: Onokuni, Hokutoumi, Musashimaru, Takanohana, Wakanohana, Kisenosato...

With the benefit of hindsight Onokuni's broken ankle in January 1990 (and missing the next four tournaments as a result) extended his career by a year.  He did offer to retire after his 7-8 in 1989 Aki but it was rejected.  Hokutoumi retired pretty quickly when it became clear his chronic injuries were not going to heal.  Again, with Musashimaru, chronic injuries were to blame.  Wakanohana was slightly different in that his performance when promoted to Yokozuna never really took off, and with a make-koshi he was on borrowed time.  I think Kisenosato's situation now seems to have set a dangerous precedent (in terms of almost indefinite withdrawals, even though he was very unlucky to get injured when he did), and Hakuho and Kakuryu seem to be cynically using kyujo quite liberally.

Swami

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,000]

34 minutes ago, Swami said:

With the benefit of hindsight Onokuni's broken ankle in January 1990 (and missing the next four tournaments as a result) extended his career by a year.  He did offer to retire after his 7-8 in 1989 Aki but it was rejected.  Hokutoumi retired pretty quickly when it became clear his chronic injuries were not going to heal.  Again, with Musashimaru, chronic injuries were to blame.  Wakanohana was slightly different in that his performance when promoted to Yokozuna never really took off, and with a make-koshi he was on borrowed time.  I think Kisenosato's situation now seems to have set a dangerous precedent (in terms of almost indefinite withdrawals, even though he was very unlucky to get injured when he did), and Hakuho and Kakuryu seem to be cynically using kyujo quite liberally.

Swami

Almost all the recent (I'm talking past 40 years) yokozuna who retired with 75%+ basho completed in their final two years were forced out due to some scandal or impropriety so its a bit hard to understand what you are arguing for here. Only completing 3~5 of the last 12 basho is exceedingly common. Hakuho has had two yusho in the past year and the number of non-scandal yokozuna who have retired with that sort of performance is very very short.

[Seiyashi 3,458]

I think we can all agree that the rate at which Hakuho and Kakuryu are going kyujo is a little alarming, but whether it is cause for action is something we can all agree to disagree on.

The one thing I have the biggest issue with, and even then I'm not too disturbed by it, is the fact that Hakuho and Kakuryu have "ulterior" motives for prolonging their stay in sumo. Not because they think they can come back and win more if they can get healthy, but they're waiting for something external and will promptly retire after that. Since both are doing it for essentially filial reasons, I'm willing to give them a pass, but quite clearly others are a little less accepting of this.

[Highway 45]

56 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

If someone puts an asterisk next to kakuryus name I would remove it. All 3 of the yokozuna who ascended during Hakuho's reign deserve special consideration since the task is especially daunting. Kakuryu probably has the most vanilla sumo out of the 3 and often falls into a few bad habits so is an easy target of criticism but has gotten it done in an era where very very few rikishi had more than 1 championship to their name. 

Granted I admit that is a fair point. Still, I would simply state that knowing when to retire and therefore not having to withdraw from too many tournaments - is an important part of preserving one's legacy.