Non-K-November basho 2020 Discussion (spoiler space)

[Asojima 2,870]

and for the 900th post in this topic, I suggest we speculate on the future for Takakeisho when he goes 1-2-12 for Hatsu. 

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

All I know is that the future used to be better in the past.
(courtesy of K.Valentin)

[jsolo 106]

https://jbssumo.blogspot.com/2020/03/results-from-haru-spring-2020.html

November (Kyushu) Sumo Basho (Tournament). Day 1-15: complete coverage.

1. Introduction to the Makuuchi (Top Division) Tournament
2. The contestants
3. Short Tournament highlight videos
4. Analysis and video links to the Final and Playoff matches on the last day.
5. Cumulative Statistics on the winner and loser of the playoff.
6. Prizes awarded
7. The "pennant race", day by day.
8. Winners of the other 5 Division Tournaments (with selected videos)
9. Quotes from the Winner and Loser (print and video)
10.Video of each Match on Day 15, along with Live coverage of the last half of Day 15 (available until early December--NHK--English) 
11. Other videos of Day 15
12. Links to full results, articles, photos (Mostly in English)
13. "Nuts and Bolts" statistics for the Full Tournament including
   A. Absences
   B. Kachi-Koshi (winning records--promotion in rank)
   C. Make-Koshi (losing records--demotion in rank or Division)
   D. Top Rank Wins (comparison with September Tournament)
   E. Rookie performance 
   F. Maegashira (Rank and Filers) v san'yaku (Top Rank) comparison with September Tournament
   G. Juryo (2nd Division) Substitutes (comparison with September Tournament)
   H. Complete compilation of cumulative Finishing Moves and Comparison with September Tournament
All finishing moves are linked to video examples of the moves in competition and demonstrated by Rikishi (wrestlers)   
   
   I. Complete cumulative Match Times and comparison with September Tournament
   J. "Stable" reports (link for all Divisions), and complete breakdown for Makuuchi
14. Day 15 condensed results, finishing move and match time Breakdown

Day 1-14 analysis, data, and match videos are below Day 15, in descending order

September Basho, July, and March Tournament reports are below the November report.

Enjoy 

https://jbssumo.blogspot.com/2020/03/results-from-haru-spring-2020.html
    

[Asashosakari 18,786]

14 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

He went kyujo, 2-2-11 the basho before his 2006 Yusho.  You may be thinking of his second, 13-2 Yusho, which was preceded by a 10-5.

I'm pretty sure you've misread my comment completely. I was talking about how the 12-3 after the 14-1 yusho extended Tochiazuma's tsuna run.

[Yamanashi 3,726]

5 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm pretty sure you've misread my comment completely. I was talking about how the 12-3 after the 14-1 yusho extended Tochiazuma's tsuna run.

OK, gotcha.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

On 28/11/2020 at 22:07, Asashosakari said:

No way. Average fans love the cannonball-type rikishi.

Well, I suppose I have not taken into account the Japanese fans. He did score very highly on the Nikkan popularity ratings. I feel like fans outside Japan in general do not really resonate as much with Takakeisho (that's not to say that some don't). For me personally I have nothing against his personality - I really appreciate his drive to succeed and mental tenacity, but I am not really a big fan of his fighting style. And yes, I do agree that Takakeisho would rather hit the heights of Yokozuna and crash and burn earlier than if he was considered a passable Ozeki. In this he reflects Takanohana. Completely different from Wakanohana's wish that he didn't become a Yokozuna so that he could be remembered as a top tier Ozeki. Both perspectives are completely understandable though.

Edited November 29, 2020 by pricklypomegranate

[Seiyashi 4,071]

1 hour ago, pricklypomegranate said:

In this he reflects Takanohana. Completely different from Wakanohana's wish that he didn't become a Yokozuna so that he could be remembered as a top tier Ozeki. Both perspectives are completely understandable though.

The benefit of hindsight. No one gets promoted to yokozuna wishing they stayed at ozeki so they will be remembered better. Shit usually happens to cause a dreadful yokozuna career in comparison to ozeki - Kisenosato is probably the best modern example. Played spoiler to Hakuho and Harumafuji a bunch of times, so definitely a great ozeki in terms of actual sumo if not yusho, but own yokozuna career ran off the rails before it even properly began.

I'm not saying Waka is wrong to wish that of his career after his retirement. It's just that, to quote David Mitchell, it would be the act of an extreme pessimist to react to a yokozuna promotion by regretting it because the ozeki career was better. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Seiyashi

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

Time for everyone's favorite post-basho post of the thread to close out the 2020 sumo year, the top 10 updates November edition:

- Takakeisho wins his second yusho and is now officially in the top 10 list for rikishi with most yusho without making yokozuna. He is in a 12 way tie for 6th place, including Mitakeumi, Terunofuji and father-in-law Hokutenyu
- Terunofuji participated in his 3rd playoff and has the dubious distinction of being winless so far. He needs to participate in one more playoff to crack the all time top 10
- Kotoshogiku retired this basho and finished with 828 career wins, which was 32 short of tying 10th place Terao
- Kotoshogiku retiring this basho places him at 6th place on the all time wins list for makuuchi with 718. This places him behind Taiho and above Kisenosato, Harumafuji, Musashimaru and Takanohana II. He is also the second ozeki to be on this list
- Hokuseiho now stands at 21-0 from pro debut, tying heya-mate Enho and Kototenta aka Earthquake. He will now be looking to surpass these two and challenge for the recognized official record of 27 wins by Jokoryu
- Kotoshogiku retired this basho and finished with 1496 career matches, which was 79 short of tying 10th place Akinoshima
- Kotoshogiku retiring this basho places him at 6th place on the all time makuuchi matches list with 1332. This places him behind Terao and above Akinoshima, Hakuho, Kotonowaka I and Takekaze
- Tamawashi now has 1301 consecutive career bouts, having never missed a bout either. He is currently in 8th place and could look to tie 7th place Toyonoumi at 1316 consecutive bouts is he manages to compete in all 15 days of Hatsu 2021
- Hakuho was ranked in makuuchi for the 98th basho. Next basho he will tie 2nd place Kyokutenho with 99 basho
- Kakuryu was ranked in makuuchi for the 83rd basho. He needs to survive until Nagoya 2021 in order to tie 10th place Wakanosato
- Hakuho extends the yokozuna basho record to 79
- Kakuryu was ranked as yokozuna for the 39th basho. He needs to survive to Natsu 2021 to tie 9th place Asashoryu
- Kotoshogiku competed in his 22 basho post-ozeki career. His retirement stops this progress and places him in 5th place on the list, below Konishiki and Takanonami
- Terunofuji competed in his 18th basho post-ozeki career. This places him in 8th place on the list. He will tie 6th place Wakahaguro and Kirishima at 20 basho if he is not re-promoted to ozeki for Haru 2021
- Tochinoshin competed in his 6th basho post-ozeki career. He will tie 10th place Kaiketsu (whose record ended with re-promotion) if he is active in Haru 2021
- Takayasu competed in his 5th basho post-ozeki career. Because he is one behind Tochinoshin, he is not in position to get into the top 10 unless Tochinoshin were to retire or be re-promoted first
- Mitakeumi competed in his 21st basho in sanyaku. He needs 4 more basho in sanyaku to crack the top 10 (Tochiozan - 25)
- Hakuho was ranked as a sekitori for the 100th basho and is ranked in 8th place on the all time list. He is the only yokozuna to do have 100 basho as sekitori. Above him is 7th place Takamiyama at 104 basho
- Kotoshogiku retired this basho with 97 basho at sekitori. This was one basho short of cracking the top 10 (Chiyonofuji and Takekaze at 98)
- Hanakaze extends the all time basho record to 207 while competing at age 50. No indication he will retire anytime soon
- Tenichi and Terunosato competed in their 165th basho together, holding joint 5th place on the all time list
- Fujinokaze competed in his 163rd basho, holding 7th place on the all time list
- Sawaisamu competed in his 160th basho, holding 8th place on the all time list
- Itakozukura and Gorikiyama competed in their 159th basho, jointly holding 9th place on the all time list with Kasachikara and Koriyama
- Kotoshogiku retired this basho with 55 kachi-koshi basho in makuuchi. This places him in 10th place on the all time list tied with Konishiki
- Kotoshogiku retired this basho with 59 kachi-koshi basho as a sekitori. This left him one short of cracking the top 10 list, with 10th place at 60 basho being Taiho and Kyokutenho
- Shoketsu scored his 82nd career kachi-koshi basho and ties him in 10th place with Harumafuji on the all time list
- Azumaryu scored his 19th kachi-koshi basho in juryo. He needs 6 more KK basho in the second division to crack the top 10
- Sawaisamu "achieved" his 129th career make-koshi basho, extending the all time record. He will not be on the banzuke for Hatsu 2021
- Hanakaze "achieved" his 115th career make-koshi basho, placing him 3rd place on the all time list. Above him is Kasachikara at 118 make-koshi basho
- Moriurara and Terunosato together "achieved" their 92nd career make-koshi basho, which places them in joint 6th place on the all time list
- Higohikari "achieved" his 87th career make-koshi basho, which ties him in 9th place with Tenichi
- Ikioi "achieved" his 17th make-koshi in the juryo division. 5 more MK basho will land him in the top 10 all time list for juryo make-koshi
- Terunofuji doing the seemingly impossible by returning to sanyaku this basho obliterates the previous lowest demotion to return record that was set by Tochinoshin. The Kaiju had fallen all the way to Jonidan 48W, this record will probably not be overtaken for a long time, though at this point not impossible
- Chiyonokuni enters the lowest demotion from makuuchi to return list for a second time, having successfully earning promotion back to the division after having fallen to makushita 46W. This puts him at 6th place aside from his 3rd place listing of sandanme 28W. He is the only person to achieve this feat twice
- Ura is the second rikishi with makuuchi experience to fall to jonidan and successfully return to juryo after Terunofuji. His fall to jonidan 106W and return to sekitorihood places him 5th place on the list
- Shodai is promoted to ozeki at the age of 28 years, 10 month. This places him in 7th place on the oldest promotions list (6BPY)
- Kotoyuki earned promotion to makuuchi for the 9th time, placing him in a 3 way tie for 5th place. However the celebration is short lived as he went kyujo for the basho. He will have a chance to earn a 10th promotion to the division next year
- Hanakaze now has 758 career losses after finishing 1-6 for November 2020. He is now 32 losses away from breaking into the top 10 all time list for career losses
- Takakeisho won the yusho as ozeki, which broke a 22 basho drought between ozeki yusho. The last ozeki to win before him was Kisenosato back in Hatsu 2017. This drought is the second longest for ozeki yusho in the 6BPY era behind the 25 basho drought from Wakanohana II (Natsu 1977) to Chiyonofuji (Nagoya 1981)

[Kaminariyuki 497]

On 27/11/2020 at 10:10, Reonito said:

There were 38 unique ozeki. So 14 eventually made it, and 24 never did. 

That makes it much more promising, ...eventually.

[Kaminariyuki 497]

On 30/11/2020 at 01:19, WAKATAKE said:

- Mitakeumi competed in his 21st basho in sanyaku. He needs 4 more basho in sanyaku to crack the top 10 (Tochiozan - 25)
 

Is this correct? I must be missing something essential on this one, or even worse, there's a basic term I thought I understood and don't.

[Gurowake 3,923]

52 minutes ago, Kaminariyuki said:

Is this correct? I must be missing something essential on this one, or even worse, there's a basic term I thought I understood and don't.

"Sanyaku" often just means "Sekiwake and Komusubi", especially in modern Japanese.

[sahaven111 172]

On 27/11/2020 at 03:57, Seiyashi said:

He might just end up being the Akebono of oshizumo.

Isn't Akebono the Akebono of oshizumo?

[Seiyashi 4,071]

10 hours ago, sahaven111 said:

On 27/11/2020 at 16:57, Seiyashi said:

He might just end up being the Akebono of oshizumo.

Isn't Akebono the Akebono of oshizumo?

Meh, I meant Takakeisho would be to oshizumo what Akebono was to gaijin yokozuna.

EDIT: -.- I believe I followed my quoted statement with exactly what I just explained, so this is a rather annoying quote out of context.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Seiyashi

[ryafuji 807]

2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

"Sanyaku" often just means "Sekiwake and Komusubi", especially in modern Japanese.

Yes, somewhat confusing that, especially as "sanyaku" literally means "three ranks," doesn't it? I usually try and say "lower sanyaku" or "junior sanyaku" myself.

[Tigerboy1966 1,376]

On 27/11/2020 at 08:57, Seiyashi said:

He might just end up being the Akebono of oshizumo.

Takakeisho would be the oshiest yokozuna in history. His percentage of wins by oshi-dashi stands at 46.39: the highest for any previous yokozuna is 33.06 by Hokutoumi.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

7 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Takakeisho would be the oshiest yokozuna in history. His percentage of wins by oshi-dashi stands at 46.39: the highest for any previous yokozuna is 33.06 by Hokutoumi.

And even for both Akebono and Hokutoumi, yorikiri followed as the second most common; both Akebono and Hokutoumi also recorded triple-digit yorikiri wins.

Whereas Takakeisho's second and third most common kimarites are tsukiotoshi and tsukidashi at 16% each. That gives him a combined total of 78% oshizumo wins at least.

[Finngall 32]

On 28/11/2020 at 13:55, Jakusotsu said:

All I know is that the future used to be better in the past.
(courtesy of K.Valentin)

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

[Reonito 1,335]

2 hours ago, ryafuji said:

Yes, somewhat confusing that, especially as "sanyaku" literally means "three ranks," doesn't it?

Especially given that there are (now) four ranks!

[Yamanashi 3,726]

3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

And even for both Akebono and Hokutoumi, yorikiri followed as the second most common; both Akebono and Hokutoumi also recorded triple-digit yorikiri wins.

Whereas Takakeisho's second and third most common kimarites are tsukiotoshi and tsukidashi at 16% each. That gives him a combined total of 78% oshizumo wins at least.

In fact, it appears he's only won five bouts in his career which involved grabbing or even touching a mawashi (4 yorikiri, 1 yoritaoshi).

[sahaven111 172]

On 28/11/2020 at 09:13, Asashosakari said:

I wouldn't say Kakuryu's time at ozeki had much to recommend him for yokozuna beyond the pair of 14-1 results that got him promoted. Sure, no kadoban or even kyujo days, while

How ironic

[Gurowake 3,923]

12 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

In fact, it appears he's only won five bouts in his career which involved grabbing or even touching a mawashi (4 yorikiri, 1 yoritaoshi).

Those don't even need to, in reality, involve the mawashi.  Why the official description includes a requirement of a mawashi hold is unclear, because anything resembling a force-out with the entire body is going to be called one of those things, depending on whether the person falls down or not as they are forced out.  There simply isn't anything else to call it.  They certainly could make a kimarite for something resembling yorikiri that doesn't require a mawashi grip to fill the space, but they haven't.

[Reonito 1,335]

14 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Why the official description includes a requirement of a mawashi hold is unclear

I feel like I've seen descriptions that require body contact but not a mawashi hold, but can't find them at the moment.

[Yamanashi 3,726]

3 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Those don't even need to, in reality, involve the mawashi.  Why the official description includes a requirement of a mawashi hold is unclear, because anything resembling a force-out with the entire body is going to be called one of those things, depending on whether the person falls down or not as they are forced out.  There simply isn't anything else to call it.  They certainly could make a kimarite for something resembling yorikiri that doesn't require a mawashi grip to fill the space, but they haven't.

Yorikiri 1: vs Asanoyama 2018.7.15; there's a video for this; he brushed the mawashi with his hand as he forced Asanoyama out.  This is one of your cases.

Yorikiri 2: vs Kititaiki 2016.5.12; also video; tried a beltless pivot throw, didn't work but his opponent was in front of him, so pushed out.  Also no mawashi.

Yorikiri 3: vs Mitakeumi 2019.5.4; this is the one where he injured himself (but didn't touch Mitakeumi's mawashi).

Yorikiri 4: vs Okinoumi 2020.1.8; no toucho mawashio.

Yoritaoshi 1: vs. Osunaarashi 2016.11.12; no video.

So, yeah, Takakeisho acts like the mawashi is made of Kryptonite.

[Yamanashi 3,726]

8 minutes ago, Reonito said:

I feel like I've seen descriptions that require body contact but not a mawashi hold, but can't find them at the moment.

Wikipedia says both yorikiri and yoritaoshi require "maintaining a grip on the opponent's mawashi."  But I don't trust them for anything but science and math, so ...

[Reonito 1,335]

From the kimarite description for yorikiri in Japanese on the NSK website: "It means to put your body in close contact with the opponent and move forward or sideways to get out of the ring and win." (google translate) No mention of a belt hold.