Non-K-November basho 2020 Discussion (spoiler space)

[Highway 46]

great end to the basho, either guy could have been a worthy winner. I think a very big 2021 in store for them both in terms of fighting for and potentially achieving higher rank.

[Jakusotsu 5,757]

3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Isegahama chief of the judging department on a possible Takakeishou tsuna run : "He has to win the yusho, or else it's not good.. If it will be a low level yusho, questions may arise.."

[Amamaniac 2,078]

1 hour ago, Dwale said:

Enho will probably end up injured, sure. Just like 99% of rikishi do. He is small, he does have to work harder to get the same result a bigger man would. All true.

That's why people like him.

Gernobono, apparently not so much... 

Actually, according to the NHK English broadcast, Enho's oyakata revealed to the press that Enho was suffering from injuries to his neck and left wrist (throughout the tournament implied?).  Not sure if this were just an excuse (story) to explain away Enho's poor performance.  But the fact that Miyagino oyakata waited until the final day to divulge this suggests it was a preexisting injury that they didn't want Enho's opponents to exploit.  

But if we give Enho the benefit of the doubt, then perhaps we shouldn't condemn lose faith in Enho and the magic he brings to the ring.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Amamaniac

[Rocks 1,805]

3 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

How silly is that? A Japanese Ozeki wins 2 Yusho in a row and we need to look at the quality of them? Come on.

 

[WAKATAKE 2,624]

6 minutes ago, Rocks said:

How silly is that? A Japanese Ozeki wins 2 Yusho in a row and we need to look at the quality of them? Come on.

 

This is interesting considering Wakanohana III did end up getting promoted with 12-3 yusho. Of course it all depends on the mood of the YDC too

[Eikokurai 3,433]

Nah. Pay no attention to that. Back-to-back yusho as an Ozeki is guaranteed promotion, no questions asked. 

[Kaninoyama 1,663]

18 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Gernobono, apparently not so much... 

Actually, according to the NHK English broadcast, Enho's oyakata revealed to the press that Enho was suffering from injuries to his neck and left wrist (throughout the tournament implied?).  Not sure if this were just an excuse (story) to explain away Enho's poor performance.  But the fact that Miyagino oyakata waited until the final day to divulge this suggests it was a preexisting injury that they didn't want Enho's opponents to exploit.  

But if we give Enho the benefit of the doubt, then perhaps we shouldn't condemn lose faith in Enho and the magic he brings to the ring.

Yes, not saying he's going to have an easy road ahead even if fully healthy, as the book on him seems to be out among his larger peers, but he has been dealing with injuries this basho and last.

When you add injuries that limit his ability to do sumo with his significant size disadvantage, he's obviusly going to struggle.

Hopefully he can regain his health and footing in juryo and make it back up to makuuchi. 

[Rocks 1,805]

12 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

This is interesting considering Wakanohana III did end up getting promoted with 12-3 yusho. Of course it all depends on the mood of the YDC too

Considering there has been all of 1 Japanese Yokozuna in the past 17 years, who just happened to suffer a career ending injury right after promotion, AND the entire country is depressed as heck, like the rest of the world, living the past year under Covid I think you can say it's about as sure a bet there is. If Takakeisho is holding that cup again in January he'll be wearing a rope not long after. IMHO.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

Here are a few links to points of interest surrounding Takakeisho's yusho.  The English translation of the yusho interview is clearly not up to Kintamayama's standards, but ...

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE6ktpKlV-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6e9szjkLNM

 

 

 

[WAKATAKE 2,624]

1 hour ago, Rocks said:

Considering there has been all of 1 Japanese Yokozuna in the past 17 years, who just happened to suffer a career ending injury right after promotion, AND the entire country is depressed as heck, like the rest of the world, living the past year under Covid I think you can say it's about as sure a bet there is. If Takakeisho is holding that cup again in January he'll be wearing a rope not long after. IMHO.

I don't doubt it. The NSK, YDC, fans and even the yokozuna themselves understand what's happening. While people have been trying to say that it's been happening for years now, the writing is clearly on the wall that the yokozuna will not finish out 2021. If they want fresh blood, they need whomever takes that opportunity in the absence of the others, this was similar to when Musashimaru made on his time.

[Godango 956]

38 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

I don't doubt it. The NSK, YDC, fans and even the yokozuna themselves understand what's happening. While people have been trying to say that it's been happening for years now, the writing is clearly on the wall that the yokozuna will not finish out 2021. If they want fresh blood, they need whomever takes that opportunity in the absence of the others, this was similar to when Musashimaru made on his time.

I've compared Takakeisho and Musashimaru on this front and many others before. And it's not a knock, if he's the best of his peers that show up to fight, he's the Yokozuna. I hope he makes it.

[Asapedroryu 227]

Terunofuji has now lost 3 yusho playoffs in the top division, addind to 2 more in lower divisions. Although he won 1 in Juryu he must now have nightmares about playoffs.

Wondering how that will affect him in future playoffs.

[DominiKaze 11]

What are the rules for becoming an Ozeki (making an Ozeki run)? I have improbable hopes that need feeding.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

1 hour ago, DominiKaze said:

What are the rules for becoming an Ozeki (making an Ozeki run)? I have improbable hopes that need feeding.

The standard is to secure 33/45 wins across three basho, of which generally at least two must be as Komusubi/Sekiwake. In practice, exceptions are often made. Asanoyama was promoted on the back of a four-basho run of double digits (10-11-10-11) rather than three, while Terunofuji was promoted mainly because of two sanyaku basho in which he got a JY and a Yusho. The third basho (but first in the run) only counted insofar as it was a kachikoshi (8-7). Shodai was also probably promoted on the strength of his previous five basho which included high-scoring records as a Maegashira, capped by a Sekiwake yusho. On the other hand, we’ve got cases like Takakeisho who managed 33/45 in three sanyaku basho, but was compelled to do a fourth.

Basically, competing consistently well at the top of the banzuke for 3-4 basho in a row is the loose benchmark.

Did you actually mean Yokozuna though?

Edited November 23, 2020 by Eikokurai

[Godango 956]

1 hour ago, DominiKaze said:

What are the rules for becoming an Ozeki (making an Ozeki run)? I have improbable hopes that need feeding.

No hard and fast rules, but generally speaking, 33 wins over 3 tournaments in Komusubi or above will do the trick.

There have been exceptions both ways, if we're talking Terunofuji he'll probably want to be a little stronger than that, and certainly no more going Kyujo. Good start though.

[sahaven111 167]

6 hours ago, Rocks said:

Considering there has been all of 1 Japanese Yokozuna in the past 17 years, who just happened to suffer a career ending injury right after promotion, AND the entire country is depressed as heck, like the rest of the world, living the past year under Covid I think you can say it's about as sure a bet there is. If Takakeisho is holding that cup again in January he'll be wearing a rope not long after. IMHO.

Agreed. I even thought that if he had defeated Terunofuji the first time and went 14-1 they would have just promoted him.

[robnplunder 974]

1 minute ago, sahaven111 said:

Agreed. I even thought that if he had defeated Terunofuji the first time and went 14-1 they would have just promoted him.

To Yokozuna?  No way.  Math is just not there.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

Strange to see people even contemplating the possibility of Takakeisho not getting promoted with a yusho in January. That just doesn’t happen. The last time an Ozeki wasn’t promoted with back-to-back yusho was in 1949 when Chiyonoyama won his first two Ozeki basho and, I assume, didn’t get the nod because they didn’t want to rush him through. It’s never happened in the six-basho era. If Taka wins in January, he’s a Yokozuna in March. Simple as that.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Eikokurai

[Seiyashi 4,068]

17 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Strange to see people even contemplating the possibility of Takakeisho not getting promoted with a yusho in January. That just doesn’t happen. The last time an Ozeki wasn’t promoted with back-to-back yusho was in 1949 when Chiyonoyama won his first two Ozeki basho and, I assume, didn’t get the nod because they didn’t want to rush him through, It’s never happened in the six-basho era. If Taka wins in January, he’s a Yokozuna in March. Simple as that.

All the more with a depleted yokozuna slate and no Mongolian potentiate in sight. Also, with the other four senior sanyaku having everything on the line to play for, no one can quite accuse the next basho of being soft the way it was this basho.

36 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

39 minutes ago, sahaven111 said:

Agreed. I even thought that if he had defeated Terunofuji the first time and went 14-1 they would have just promoted him.

To Yokozuna?  No way.  Math is just not there.

The last promotion on the back of a 12-3 JY followed by a yusho was Kisenosato, and that was because Kisenosato had a ton of JY but no cigar. Takakeisho's record is not enough to justify it.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

24 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Kisenosato had a ton of JY but no cigar

He also had the year’s highest win total in 2016. That, the 12 jun-yusho (of which four were in 2016 alone) and a streak of 17 (!) kachikoshi, all 9-6 or above, combined to be his ‘yusho equivalent’. Fair to say he’d outgrown the Ozeki rank.

[Akinomaki 39,580]

7 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Nah. Pay no attention to that. Back-to-back yusho as an Ozeki is guaranteed promotion, no questions asked. 

Guaranteed promotion. Isegehama has not put any doubt to that, he just called it problematic, without even specifying what he deems low level. Questions asked at the riji-kai that finalizes the promotion could simply result in a less than unanimous vote, which would not look that good in the promotion message, no "manjo itchi". Isegahama himself could refuse to vote in favor, if he'd remember then what he said now, which is unlikely - and though I limerick-ed in favor, I doubt Takakeisho will win next basho.

[code_number3 694]

5 hours ago, DominiKaze said:

What are the rules for becoming an Ozeki (making an Ozeki run)? I have improbable hopes that need feeding.

Yes, like many others had said, the general rule is 33/45 wins on last 3 bashos ranked komusubi/sekiwake and some “exceptions” like what happened to Asanoyama, Takakeisho, and Shodai.

Tochinoshin started his ozeki run as a maegashira but achieved more than 33 wins (14-1Y @ M3, 10-5 @ S, 13-2JY @ S)

[ryafuji 806]

13 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Nah. Pay no attention to that. Back-to-back yusho as an Ozeki is guaranteed promotion, no questions asked. 

Not if it was a freak 10-5 eight way playoff or something. 

[Eikokurai 3,433]

8 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

Not if it was a freak 10-5 eight way playoff or something. 

Haha, maybe, but nothing like that has ever happened or likely ever will because the schedulers would separate everyone out long before it got to that. Harumafuji has the lowest yusho-winning score with 11-4 and that was as freak an occurrence as the Kyokai will allow.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Eikokurai

[Kintamayama 44,275]

14 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Come on, we know it's just talk. There is always some riji saying negative stuff about a forthcoming run. It's for  motivational purposes. And Isegahama was probably pissed off because his guy was beaten by the very same Yokozuna prospect so he felt like raining on his parade. I think even a 12-3 will be enough.