Akinomaki

Non-K-November basho 2020 Discussion (spoiler space)

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4 minutes ago, Morty said:

I think it happens more when an individual is so dominant (like Hak) that they legitimately change the sport they are part of

There's obvious things like the Fosbury Flop in high jump, but Hakuho's legacy surely goes further than that. It's just really hard to find out to what extent, and we might still be picking apart the pieces after he retires as a shisho.

Edited by Seiyashi

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17 minutes ago, Morty said:

In teams sports it is more internal to a team rather than within a league. I know nothing about ice hockey, but lots of good examples in cricket. Shane Warne, the greatest leg-spin bowler Australia has ever produced, ruined spin bowling in Australia for a generation. Everyone assumed his genius would create a golden period of Australian leg spinners who would dominate the world - instead it did the exact opposite because no-one wanted to compete for that leg spinner spot, and there was a complete absence of decent spin bowlers for ten years after he retired. Likewise when Greg Chappell, Dennis Lillie and Rod Marsh all retired at the same time, the Australian team went from world beaters to laughing stocks in just one season. 

But it obviously isn't a universal analogy - a great team who dominates for a while can be replaced by another great team, or they can change the game so much that there is a period after they decline when it is open season for everyone. I think it happens more when an individual is so dominant (like Hak) that they legitimately change the sport they are part of

Seem to recall that the West Indian pace bowlers not only dominated for awhile but changed perceptions that spin was even necessary in a lineup.

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51 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Yes, but here's the important part - the important part of Hakuho's dominance which you've rightly listed is stuff you can't physically see - the mentality of having an opponent know he's defeated before he even fights. If fans want to see an ozeki "dominate" the opponent, well, unless an opponent is so unprepared against Takakeisho that they allow two blasts to the chest, we're never going to see that kind of thing with Takakeisho. Especially when he seems to have decided that he would fight a bit more upright and defensive than go all out and get slapped down. It's working by the numbers which is the big thing in a yusho. Can he do both numbers and visual dominance? Not with smart opposition he won't. How will that pan out in the future? God knows, but I like Takakeisho's style this basho simply because he's shown more resources than he used to - he would get randomly slapped down because he overextended when he was putting together his ozeki run, but that's almost never a problem now. He's sort of the great experiment of oshi-zumo, because it was previously assumed you needed yotsu skills to get the rope. We're seeing rudiments of it with Takakeisho, but nowhere near what is classically assumed to be needed, so if he can make the rope on his current skillset it will be a game-changer.

But back on the point of wanting to see an ozeki dominate an M17, well, wrong ozeki. Might even be wrong ozeki trio, since the one who can dominate mentally can't show it, and the other two who can dominate physically can't mentally, at least not yet. Asanoyama has crap for aura projection, to be honest; even Shodai beats him for that, and he's Shodai. The only recent ozeki I can think of who "dominated" were Tochinoshin and Terunofuji.

24 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

You've put your finger on it. I didn't care for him back when he just came in like a wrecking ball and tended to bite dust straight out of the tachiai, but there's just something very very different about his sumo now than it was one year ago. It's not an exciting style, I'll grant you that, but it's a lot more - I think the word here is sublime. 

Agree that if Takakeisho makes it to Yokozuna on his style, it would absolutely change the game. At least there's a template for future rikishi to follow. It shows that not everyone can be a Yokozuna, but a Yokozuna can look like anyone. My main concern however is that we did not have strong yotsu wrestlers this time round. Being more upright could make Takakeisho more vulnerable to mawashi grabs, especially with people with long arms and very good yotsu skills like Hakuho and Kakuryu. There was a reason why he was fighting leaning downwards in the past - maybe he was trying leverage his shorter height to protect the mawashi. Perhaps offence is the greatest defence is his motto now? The real test is next basho. 

Takakeisho's dominance this basho might be an omen for a Hakuho-less and Kakuryu-less world. The one we've made so much fun of might actually come out on top, in typical sumo fashion.

21 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

There's obvious things like the Fosbury Flop in high jump, but Hakuho's legacy surely goes further than that. It's just really hard to find out to what extent, and we might still be picking apart the pieces after he retires as a shisho.

It certainly does. It's just theory, but I think he's developed a sophisticated set of cues for what to do that works well for him and he has adjusted over the years to cope with injuries. You can't really think on the dohyo unless there's a deadlock (see Hakuho v Mitakeumi when he tapped the latter's foot). Nearly 20 years of experience also greatly boosts his decision making. When he becomes an oyakata, I would want him to write a book about how his system works (i.e. beyond having a good medical and training team, but how he organises that information he gains from practice, video and bouts), but of course, it's an industry secret so it's just wishful thinking. 

Edited by pricklypomegranate

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2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Perhaps if Asashoryu hadn't gone out drinking back in January 2010, he would have been first in line...  So there will be another Mongolian stable master.

Is Asashoryu holding Japanese citizenship?

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29 minutes ago, code_number3 said:

Is Asashoryu holding Japanese citizenship?

Not that I know of, but I didn't realise that Asasekiryu was!  

I understand what you're saying, but I would argue that if Asashoryu hadn't been forced to retire early, he may well have ended up exploring the possibility of becoming a Japanese citizen in order to stay involved with the sport.  Even now, he likes to stay in the sumo limelight via press statements.  So after that night in an Asabujuban bar, he went from "potentially first in line" to "not in line at all".  At least that is how I view things.  It's all just speculation at this point.

Edited by Amamaniac

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1 hour ago, pricklypomegranate said:

My main concern however is that we did not have strong yotsu wrestlers this time round. Being more upright could make Takakeisho more vulnerable to mawashi grabs, especially with people with long arms and very good yotsu skills like Hakuho and Kakuryu. There was a reason why he was fighting leaning downwards in the past - maybe he was trying leverage his shorter height to protect the mawashi. Perhaps offence is the greatest defence is his motto now? The real test is next basho. 

How about this basho?

We will all be able to see that tested in the Final Day bout with Terunofuji.  He is definitely not a pusher-thruster.  His yotsu skills are arguably not on par with Hakuho's, but he does have long arms and his hidari-uwate is pretty lethal.  Like you say, Takakeisho knows how to keep opponents off his mawashi.  Early on, fighting on the mawashi had been his Achilles heel, but he has been working on remedying that.  In this tournament, he did give up his belt once, but despite that, he managed to emerge victorious.  If he surrenders his belt to Terunofuji, however, he won't be that lucky.  I am super excited to see how it all turns out.

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Do I see Hakuho grooming this Hokuseiho kid to be his successor or something? 21-0 and triple Yusho in a row. No problem at all, barely an inconvenience.

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Day 13 rikishi talk- Day 12 never happened .

Akua, did not get his kachikoshi today: "I planned on going about it calmly but I couldn't get it into gear. i will do good sumo for the remaining two bouts."

Kotonowaka, pulling ang digging his own grave, no kachikoshi today: "Nothing I can do about that pull now. I'll have to regroup. I won't be thinking about unnecessary things - I will go on the offensive!"

Chiyotairyuu, first kachikoshi in three bashos: "It's been too long so I don't know what's what.. I will go crazy for the remaining two days. I will blow my opponents away! I will show you tachiai the likes you've never seen before!"

Hokutofuji, the oshi rikishi going for a right hand belt grip and winning: "Okinoumi is a yotsu guy and we practice a lot together. I want my opponents to be aware of the fact that I can do this kind of sumo as well!"

Terunofuji, 11 wins, Ozeki run on the horizon: "I am frantically fighting every day. My body is moving on its own. I did what I could do. I'm not thinking about the yusho in particular. I am conscious of the 33 wins thing.."

Shimanoumi, losing on the musubi no ichiban to Takakeishou. Tomorrow, he faces Terunofuji, both of them with two losses: "I was not nervous. I managed to go as I had planned. I'm not thinking of the yusho. I just want to do good sumo for the remaining two days." (don't we all..)

 

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2 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

How about this basho?

We will all be able to see that tested in the Final Day bout with Terunofuji.  He is definitely not a pusher-thruster.  His yotsu skills are arguably not on par with Hakuho's, but he does have long arms and his hidari-uwate is pretty lethal.  Like you say, Takakeisho knows how to keep opponents off his mawashi.  Early on, fighting on the mawashi had been his Achilles heel, but he has been working on remedying that.  In this tournament, he did give up his belt once, but despite that, he managed to emerge victorious.  If he surrenders his belt to Terunofuji, however, he won't be that lucky.  I am super excited to see how it all turns out.

Yet Terunofuji has yet to beat Takakeisho in two attempts, both before and after his fall. Takakeisho's pushing attack is usually too potent for him to counter out of the tachi-ai. The only remedy I can see is for a henka, yet I'm hoping Terunofuji has enough sense to not henka after the reaction to his last one.

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1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

Yet Terunofuji has yet to beat Takakeisho in two attempts, both before and after his fall. Takakeisho's pushing attack is usually too potent for him to counter out of the tachi-ai. The only remedy I can see is for a henka, yet I'm hoping Terunofuji has enough sense to not henka after the reaction to his last one.

The other issue is that if Terunofuji wants to win the yusho, he's probably going to have to beat Takakeisho twice, and that's a big ask.  

But first we have to see if Takakeisho can dispatch a Sucky-wake (Mitakeumi did tell the press that he wanted to make his presence felt, so there is no time like tomorrow! [...muffled laughter]) and if Terunofuji can dispatch an "on fire" makujiri.  Caution: excitement ahead.

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7 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I'm hoping Terunofuji has enough sense to not henka after the reaction to his last one.

At least this time the crowd aren’t allowed to boo him.

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1 minute ago, Amamaniac said:

The other issue is that if Terunofuji wants to win the yusho, he's probably going to have to beat Takakeisho twice, and that's a big ask.  

But first we have to see if Takakeisho can dispatch a Sucky-wake (Mitakeumi did tell the press that he wanted to make his presence felt, so there is no time like tomorrow! [...muffled laughter]) and if Terunofuji can dispatch an "on fire" makujiri.  Caution: excitement ahead.

Yeah, seriously screw Mitakeumi if he decides now of all times is the best time to make his presence felt. At least he's put to rest any talk of an ozeki run; he's starting from 0 again after two back to back at best bare minimum KKs.

I think Shimanoumi, despite being primarily oshi, fights enough on the belt that Terunofuji should be alright against him. Terunofuji seems to have done some work in learning how to disrupt holds and contact; his explosive disengage from Ryuden today was quite something to see. 

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1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

Yeah, seriously screw Mitakeumi if he decides now of all times is the best time to make his presence felt. At least he's put to rest any talk of an ozeki run; he's starting from 0 again after two back to back at best bare minimum KKs.

That and he can kiss his Sanyaku status goodbye, especially if he loses his last two bouts.  

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4 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

That and he can kiss his Sanyaku status goodbye, especially if he loses his last two bouts.  

I mean, the way he lost his last two bouts, he doesn't even look like he's trying to give his opponent butsukari. The sad part is Takayasu won't be able to take that slot, unless Takanosho also loses out.

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31 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

How about this basho?

We will all be able to see that tested in the Final Day bout with Terunofuji.  He is definitely not a pusher-thruster.  His yotsu skills are arguably not on par with Hakuho's, but he does have long arms and his hidari-uwate is pretty lethal.  Like you say, Takakeisho knows how to keep opponents off his mawashi.  Early on, fighting on the mawashi had been his Achilles heel, but he has been working on remedying that.  In this tournament, he did give up his belt once, but despite that, he managed to emerge victorious.  If he surrenders his belt to Terunofuji, however, he won't be that lucky.  I am super excited to see how it all turns out.

26 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Yet Terunofuji has yet to beat Takakeisho in two attempts, both before and after his fall. Takakeisho's pushing attack is usually too potent for him to counter out of the tachi-ai. The only remedy I can see is for a henka, yet I'm hoping Terunofuji has enough sense to not henka after the reaction to his last one.

Yup, Seiyashi is right, that's why I think that his real test is next basho. It's not just that the primary yotsu wrestlers are coming back (i.e. Hakuho, Kakuryu, Shodai and Asanoyama) - it's Takakeisho's ability to remain under pressure and not choke at a critical moment and let slip the Yokozunahood as well. Terunofuji didn't look good after today's bout even though he won it - it seemed like he was wincing in pain. 

Edited by pricklypomegranate

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Really glad to see such good belt sumo from Hokutofuji, today and yesterday too.

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2 hours ago, Jyuunomori said:

Do I see Hakuho grooming this Hokuseiho kid to be his successor or something? 21-0 and triple Yusho in a row. No problem at all, barely an inconvenience.

Hakuho has proven that he has an eye for talent (aside from looking in the mirror every day ;-)).  This "kid" is the exact opposite of Ishiura and Enho in terms of size.  Even though he has yet to be "groomed", his size is probably helping him decimate the opposition in the lower divisions.  I guess we have ourselves another "when will this new recruit hit the wall" situations...

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1 hour ago, dada78641 said:

Really glad to see such good belt sumo from Hokutofuji, today and yesterday too.

It's been 4 days on the trot now! Starting to get a bit 'Who are you, and what have you done with the real Hokutofuji?' I like it. It's forcing me to reassess Hakkaku's protegé.

---

I think the forum going down inevitably had an effect on this basho's 'turnout'. I just got out of the habit of coming here after watching the sumo each day. 

I'm enjoying the sumo. Sure, there've been some meh bouts, but that's normal. There have been some crackers too. I'm not missing a 'narrative'.

---

Watching Enho hasn't been enjoyable this time. He just looks like he's going to get badly hurt...

---

Seeing all the hate for Mitakeumi is amusing AF. I gave up on him ages ago, but I don't suddenly dislike him. I tend to root for his aite instead.

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Just now, RabidJohn said:

Seeing all the hate for Mitakeumi is amusing AF. I gave up on him ages ago, but I don't suddenly dislike him. I tend to root for his aite instead.

I tend to just ignore him, but not when he's in a position to muck up Takakeisho's best shot at a yusho in two years, and when Takakeisho has actually shown yusho-worthy sumo.

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24 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Hakuho has proven that he has an eye for talent (aside from looking in the mirror every day ;-)).  This "kid" is the exact opposite of Ishiura and Enho in terms of size.  Even though he has yet to be "groomed", his size is probably helping him decimate the opposition in the lower divisions.  I guess we have ourselves another "when will this new recruit hit the wall" situations...

He'll certainly hit a wall and it'll happen soon at this rate. He'll come up against opponents who can counter his size with their skill. That said, three basho in a row without a single loss is remarkable enough to make me think the wall won't be quite as solid as we might expect.

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I still tend to root for Mitakeumi. Extended stays in junior sanyaku are no easy feat, much to be admired.

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2 minutes ago, Kotogouryuu said:
29 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Hakuho has proven that he has an eye for talent (aside from looking in the mirror every day ;-)).  This "kid" is the exact opposite of Ishiura and Enho in terms of size.  Even though he has yet to be "groomed", his size is probably helping him decimate the opposition in the lower divisions.  I guess we have ourselves another "when will this new recruit hit the wall" situations...

He'll certainly hit a wall and it'll happen soon at this rate. He'll come up against opponents who can counter his size with their skill. That said, three basho in a row without a single loss is remarkable enough to make me think the wall won't be quite as solid as we might expect.

The flip side is (and this ties into the discussion about Hakuho's recruiting skill earlier) is that that's the second member of the 21 club that Hakuho has spotted and recruited - on the complete opposite of the size/weight spectrum to boot. No other stable/recruiter has a twofer in that club. The only other oyakata likely to come close is Naruto at the moment.

Edited by Seiyashi

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55 minutes ago, lackmaker said:

I still tend to root for Mitakeumi. Extended stays in junior sanyaku are no easy feat, much to be admired.

Too true! I bet if you ask people to name the most admirable rikishi of this era, nine out of ten name Goeidou! (Injonokuchi...)

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3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Yeah, seriously screw Mitakeumi if he decides now of all times is the best time to make his presence felt.

Wait, what?! Now is exactly the time for him to step up!

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33 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

Too true! I bet if you ask people to name the most admirable rikishi of this era, nine out of ten name Goeidou! (Injonokuchi...)

No one claims either are the most admirable but lets not diminish the achievements of those who have outperformed so many of their contemporaries. Unless we can only really cheer the champions.

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