Non-K-November basho 2020 Discussion (spoiler space)

[Kaninoyama 1,649]

20 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Am I the only one who dislikes Tobizaru's sumo the more I watch it? It feels like he just throws everything and the kitchen sink at his opponents and does whatever he can out of the chaos; hardly a joy to watch especially when he doesn't win as often with it.

That was Yoshikaze's approach as well when he was at his peak. Love it. 

[Seiyashi 4,068]

1 minute ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Nah, I felt it was very close - Takakeisho was nervous too, the way he was on the edge of the tawara. But yes, I hope Mitakeumi ruins it tomorrow - I love a little chaos ;) 

Funnily enough, you'd think we've had enough chaos for a few years...

[pricklypomegranate 730]

1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

Funnily enough, you'd think we've had enough chaos for a few years...

Well, either way I win as a fan and sumo follower. Mitakeumi ruins it and we may have a three way playoff or everything goes to heck in January. The Hakuho era is coming to a close, and I don't think the chaos has even started. 

[since_94 650]

Takakeisho’s win was anything but pretty. An Ozeki should be winning with authority—regularly dominating lesser opponents, like M17s—rather than pulling victories out of the fire in such last ditch, ugly fashion, IMO. Just a preference thing. His numbers don’t lie.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

9 hours ago, Morty said:

I'm just as interested as I ever was, but there is an awful lot going on in the world right now which means I can't give it as much attention as I'd like. I suspect a lot of people are in that boat.     

For the record, my post was not meant to imply that I have lost interest in this tournament or in oozumo at large.  Far from it.  One of the beauties of this traditional Japanese sport is that the way it is "designed" and the duality of its simplicity and complexity never cease to amuse.  The harder you look, the more you'll find.

As for what's going on in the world right now, I completely get what you're saying.  There is so much uncertainty.  However, with COVID (i.e., one of those uncertainties) and the lockdowns, I was assuming that more people would have more time to devote to the current tournament, and actually want a diversion from all that is going on.  Oozumo is such a intoxicating escape! 

[Hakuryuho 334]

3 hours ago, since_94 said:

Terunofuji was inspirational and I dare say his efforts to get there earned him redemption in the eyes of fans who had scorned him following his infamous henka on a kadoban Kotoshogiku.

While there certainly are people who see Terunofuji in a different light since his shameful henka, I can assure you there are still lots of people who have not forgiven him for it and likely never will,  including me.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

A lot happened down in Juryo today.  

No surprise, but Fujiazuma extended his embarrassing streak to 0-13.  If Shohozan had lost that bout, even struggling as he is, I would have said there is no God!

The real plot twist, however, was the six-way tie at the top of the Juryo leaderboard.  Today's bouts cut the number down to just two men, and that process was actually really interesting.  So, six men started the day with 8-4 records.  In the first three bouts featuring co-leaders, all resulted in losses for them.  They were dropping like flies, so to say.  Among them was fan/Forum/my favourite, Ura.  Amazingly, he attempted another izori throw, but this time he couldn't pull it off.  It looked a little too much like a desperation move on this occasion.

But after that rough start, 8-4 Chiyonoumi managed to win his bout, guaranteeing him a spot at the top of the Juryo leaderboard.  He beat Tobizaru's brother, Hidenoumi, with a nifty harimanage throw.  You don't see those every day.

And finally, several bouts later, the pièce de résistance: an elimination bout between the two other 8-4 frontrunners, Midorifuji and Jokoryu.  I'm digging Midorifuji and what he has been showing us in this tournament.  It doesn't hurt that he is from Isegahama stable (like Harumafuji).  And as for Jokoryu, I still hold a grudge for him getting a kinboshi against Harumafuji back in 2015 (tongue in cheek).  At the end of that bout, I was delighted that Midorifuji won, and the icing on the cake was that he treated us to a rare zubuneri takedown.  

Sumo needs its technicians.  Juryo is not as boring as people might think.  The catch is that following it requires more time than most people have to spare.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Amamaniac

[Eikokurai 3,433]

1 hour ago, since_94 said:

An Ozeki should be winning with authority—regularly dominating lesser opponents, like M17s

Yes, but ... this is an M17 in the form of his life which is why he’s facing an Ozeki in the first place. I don’t think it’s that clear cut. 

[Eikokurai 3,433]

4 hours ago, since_94 said:

Terunofuji was inspirational

So it seems! Terunofuji, Tobizaru and Shimanoumi all seem to have found him very inspiring. No Tokushoryu, no those guys. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Eikokurai

[Seiyashi 4,068]

Just now, Eikokurai said:

1 hour ago, since_94 said:

An Ozeki should be winning with authority—regularly dominating lesser opponents, like M17s

Yes, but ... this is an M17 in the form of his life which is why he’s facing an Ozeki in the first place. I don’t think it’s that clear cut. 

Seconded. Rank on the banzuke doesn't dictate how you fight from one basho to the next; you could be M17 on a super hot streak. Otherwise, there would be absolutely no rank movement on the banzuke if everyone "fought like their rank". Right now, I'd say Shimanoumi is fighting at sanyaku level; he's certainly shown better sumo than Mitakeumi and on par if not better than Takayasu and Takanosho.

[Karasukurai 165]

I love Ura but I'm kind of glad he isn't dominating Juryo. I believe that he said he wasn't fully fit but was gaining more confidence in his body as time went on. Another basho or two in Juryo will hopefully ensure he becomes a Makuuchi mainstay in the future which would be great.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

19 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

22 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

1 hour ago, since_94 said:

An Ozeki should be winning with authority—regularly dominating lesser opponents, like M17s

Yes, but ... this is an M17 in the form of his life which is why he’s facing an Ozeki in the first place. I don’t think it’s that clear cut. 

Seconded. Rank on the banzuke doesn't dictate how you fight from one basho to the next; you could be M17 on a super hot streak. Otherwise, there would be absolutely no rank movement on the banzuke if everyone "fought like their rank". Right now, I'd say Shimanoumi is fighting at sanyaku level; he's certainly shown better sumo than Mitakeumi and on par if not better than Takayasu and Takanosho.

I'd like to weigh in on the side of since_94 on this one.  While I agree with a more qualified assessment suggested by both Eikokurai and Seiyashi (something that applies to pretty much all lacklustre performances by sanyaku and joi-ranked wrestlers; but I usually reserve my free passes for injured elite, and Takakeisho is more or less injury free at the moment), I think it is fair to "expect" an Ozeki to dominate most opponents, especially those from the bottom of the 42-slot division.  Takakeisho did win against Shima-chan, so no harm no foul.  

Still, my personal sense is that we are in the eye of a transition hurricane (i.e., tropical storm Haku-no-more), and the banzuke is not functioning the way it should.  We've seen two makujiri yusho plus two potential makujiro yusho this year.  That is about as unusual as oozumo gets.  Something just ain't right.  So I too wish that Takakeisho would/could/should show more authority.  Oozumo desperately needs someone to do that.

[since_94 650]

41 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Seconded. Rank on the banzuke doesn't dictate how you fight from one basho to the next; you could be M17 on a super hot streak. Otherwise, there would be absolutely no rank movement on the banzuke if everyone "fought like their rank". Right now, I'd say Shimanoumi is fighting at sanyaku level; he's certainly shown better sumo than Mitakeumi and on par if not better than Takayasu and Takanosho.

My comment was not meant to impugn the quality of Shimanoumi’s sumo. He’s fighting marvelously well and I’m happy to see it. I would argue that rank on the banzuke should dictate how you fight from one basho to the next, once you reach Ozeki, although the past few years performances from those holding that rank have largely belied this proposition. Takakeisho is winning, there’s no disputing that. I’m just not imagining there’s much buzz among the crowds spilling out of the Kokugikan into the Tokyo evenings after watching him do it.

[Seregost 119]

I'm not a fan, but I think Takakeisho has been fighting great this tournament. Most of his wins have been fast and clear, except maybe today and the last second rescue in the tawara against Kiribiyama. If he had to go zensho convincingly, he would be Hakuho.

[Seiyashi 4,068]

Mm, well, Takakeisho among the three serving ozeki has the least going for him in terms of style. There's only one way you can be dominant with oshizumo, and it requires you to be at your absolute physical peak with no injuries and have a body built for it - say Akebono. Takakeisho's done the most he can with his limitations, but there's a reason why when he was promoted no one saw him going for the rope. The guy does sumo more with his force of will than his body.

The point being that what do we think of when we say dominating - Hakuho style? That's an overwhelmingly yotsu style which only Asanoyama is truly proficient at, and other than his shinozeki basho, Asanoyama has never looked as dominating as Takakeisho has this basho. I think in his own way, Takakeisho is dominating, it's just not as obvious as what we've been used to.

[Seregost 119]

Btw, the gyoji reaction in the Takagenji - Shiraishi bout was priceless. His "no idea what happened, I'll just point....this way" face was great 

[Morty 1,469]

37 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

 

Still, my personal sense is that we are in the eye of a transition hurricane (i.e., tropical storm Haku-no-more), and the banzuke is not functioning the way it should.  We've seen two makujiri yusho plus two potential makujiro yusho this year.  That is about as unusual as oozumo gets.  

It is not unusual for great champions to create a vacuum behind them. It happens in many sports that one individual or team is so dominant for a long time (in the way Hak has been) that there is a period of disruption after they go, or when they go into decline. Hak missing more than half the time qualifies as either of those right now for mine. Hak is more than just a once in a generation rikishi - he has been so dominant that that dominance shapes the sport around him. I'm really enjoying this period of ... *uncertainty... where anyone seems capable of winning. While the period of Hak dominance was draw dropping to watch (particularly 2007 to 2015), it could get predictable. The sumo now isn't as good and the rikishi clearly transitional, but the unpredictability makes it hard to look away and I love it.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

58 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Mm, well, Takakeisho among the three serving ozeki has the least going for him in terms of style. There's only one way you can be dominant with oshizumo, and it requires you to be at your absolute physical peak with no injuries and have a body built for it - say Akebono. Takakeisho's done the most he can with his limitations, but there's a reason why when he was promoted no one saw him going for the rope. The guy does sumo more with his force of will than his body.

The point being that what do we think of when we say dominating - Hakuho style? That's an overwhelmingly yotsu style which only Asanoyama is truly proficient at, and other than his shinozeki basho, Asanoyama has never looked as dominating as Takakeisho has this basho. I think in his own way, Takakeisho is dominating, it's just not as obvious as what we've been used to.

I don't necessarily agree that there is only one way to be dominant with oshi-zumo. Yes, you must have the body for it, and you must be at your physical peak. As Akebono was extremely tall and therefore could get into a yotsu position if so required, Takakeisho's planet sized and shaped body would necessitate him to rely on well-timed dodges and parries. In my opinion, there's a fundamental difference between their approaches - one is pure overwhelming power, the other is a more crafty style. And yes, I agree with @since_94 - Takakeisho's style might just get him to yokozuna, yes, but I think he's going to have either a short career and/or get a lot of flak for it in the future - either with underwhelming results and inconsistent performance, which is inherent to a style heavily dependent on physical condition or with the YDC and public not exactly liking his dodges and pulls, which it precisely what Hakuho and Kakuryu are being rained down upon for. Of course, since he is a Japanese yokozuna, he might just get a bit of leniency, but I don't think more critical commentators like Kitanofuji are gonna let him get away with it. 

Hmm... the reason why Asanoyama and Shodai don't seem as dominating as Takakeisho might be the aura as well. They do seem to get flustered or just plain reject their privileges (see Shodai with the sanban and the parking space, which he used later, but the refusal is still notable) 

What is Hakuho's style? Well, take it from Kisenosato, who probably knows more about it than any rikishi alive, retired or active. He stated that Asashoryu aimed to prevent interruptions to his sumo and physically as well as mentally overwhelm the opponent. However, he states that the drawback was that Asashoryu lost as quickly and as explosively as he won. And, in my opinion, that explosiveness meant he started to gain a lot of injuries and run out of gas at the end of his career - he could only run on pure rage for so long. Sure, he might have gone to 30+ yusho, but I don't think he could have done 40+ yusho. 

Hakuho didn't have the physically strongest body 10 years ago (that crown still belongs to Baruto for me), and sure as hell doesn't now. However, his dominance is so enduring because he not only attempts to neutralise his opponents' skill and strength (as I have previously mentioned), but to also totally disrupt and bewilder his opponent into panic mode and make a bad mistake. That enables him to be more economical with his physical capacities, last longer and get better mileage out of his experience. According to new scraps of translations I pieced together of Kisenosato's discussion on the subject (on the Kyokai's Youtube) - he said: "Fighting Hakuho was the worst - you are never comfortable. He would watch your move before reacting. There were so many types and variations that it was beyond my comprehension." Furthermore, just yesterday, he commented that Chiyotairyu was baffled by Tokushoryu's Hakuho-esque same hand slap and mawashi grab. 

Hakuho is better known for his yotsu-zumo, but I think what the most attentive rikishi who have fought him will remember him by is a very reactive, intuitive, pragmatic and bewildering style of sumo. The reason why there are so many "types and variations" is because there is no agenda, yotsu or oshi - your agenda is his agenda - he simply finds what works in the moment and sticks with it. There are only two ways to defeat him - physically overwhelm him (getting popular these days) or take advantage of his complacency and outwit him (see Mitakeumi's win). 

Now, if only he could teach his deshi the concept (not necessarily the skills, because they might not be the right size)...

Edited November 20, 2020 by pricklypomegranate

[Amamaniac 2,078]

Reports are out that (former) Asasekiryu will be taking over the Takasago Stable after the current Takasago oyakata and coach of Asanoyama retires in early December.  Perhaps if Asashoryu hadn't gone out drinking back in January 2010, he would have been first in line...  So there will be another Mongolian stable master.  It will be very interesting to see how Ozeki Asanoyama develops under the new tutelage of a former Sekiwake.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202011200000393.html

[Seiyashi 4,068]

51 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:

I don't necessarily agree that there is only one way to be dominant with oshi-zumo. Yes, you must have the body for it, and you must be at your physical peak. As Akebono was extremely tall and therefore could get into a yotsu position if so required, Takakeisho's planet sized and shaped body would necessitate him to rely on well-timed dodges and parries. In my opinion, there's a fundamental difference between their approaches - one is pure overwhelming power, the other is a more crafty style. And yes, I agree with @since_94 - Takakeisho's style might just get him to yokozuna, yes, but I think he's going to have either a short career and/or get a lot of flak for it in the future - either with underwhelming results and inconsistent performance, which is inherent to a style heavily dependent on physical condition or with the YDC and public not exactly liking his dodges and pulls, which it precisely what Hakuho and Kakuryu are being rained down upon for. Of course, since he is a Japanese yokozuna, he might just get a bit of leniency, but I don't think more critical commentators like Kitanofuji are gonna let him get away with it. 

Hmm... the reason why Asanoyama and Shodai don't seem as dominating as Takakeisho might be the aura as well. They do seem to get flustered or just plain reject their privileges (see Shodai with the sanban and the parking space, which he used later, but the refusal is still notable) 

What is Hakuho's style? Well, take it from Kisenosato, who probably knows more about it than any rikishi alive, retired or active. He stated that Asashoryu aimed to prevent interruptions to his sumo and physically as well as mentally overwhelm the opponent. However, he states that the drawback was that Asashoryu lost as quickly and as explosively as he won. And, in my opinion, that explosiveness meant he started to gain a lot of injuries and run out of gas at the end of his career - he could only run on pure rage for so long. Sure, he might have gone to 30+ yusho, but I don't think he could have done 40+ yusho. 

Hakuho didn't have the physically strongest body 10 years ago (that crown still belongs to Baruto for me), and sure as hell doesn't now. However, his dominance is so enduring because he not only attempts to neutralise his opponents' skill and strength (as I have previously mentioned), but to also totally disrupt and bewilder his opponent into panic mode and make a bad mistake. That enables him to be more economical with his physical capacities, last longer and get better mileage out of his experience. According to new scraps of translations I pieced together of Kisenosato's discussion on the subject (on the Kyokai's Youtube) - he said: "Fighting Hakuho was the worst - you are never comfortable. He would watch your move before reacting. There were so many types and variations that it was beyond my comprehension." Furthermore, just yesterday, he commented that Chiyotairyu was baffled by Tokushoryu's Hakuho-esque same hand slap and mawashi grab. 

Hakuho is better known for his yotsu-zumo, but I think what the most attentive rikishi who have fought him will remember him by is a very reactive, intuitive, pragmatic and bewildering style of sumo. The reason why there are so many "types and variations" is because there is no agenda, yotsu or oshi - your agenda is his agenda - he simply finds what works in the moment and sticks with it. There are only two ways to defeat him - physically overwhelm him (getting popular these days) or take advantage of his complacency and outwit him (see Mitakeumi's win). 

Now, if only he could teach his deshi the concept (not necessarily the skills, because they might not be the right size)...

Yes, but here's the important part - the important part of Hakuho's dominance which you've rightly listed is stuff you can't physically see - the mentality of having an opponent know he's defeated before he even fights. If fans want to see an ozeki "dominate" the opponent, well, unless an opponent is so unprepared against Takakeisho that they allow two blasts to the chest, we're never going to see that kind of thing with Takakeisho. Especially when he seems to have decided that he would fight a bit more upright and defensive than go all out and get slapped down. It's working by the numbers which is the big thing in a yusho. Can he do both numbers and visual dominance? Not with smart opposition he won't. How will that pan out in the future? God knows, but I like Takakeisho's style this basho simply because he's shown more resources than he used to - he would get randomly slapped down because he overextended when he was putting together his ozeki run, but that's almost never a problem now. He's sort of the great experiment of oshi-zumo, because it was previously assumed you needed yotsu skills to get the rope. We're seeing rudiments of it with Takakeisho, but nowhere near what is classically assumed to be needed, so if he can make the rope on his current skillset it will be a game-changer.

But back on the point of wanting to see an ozeki dominate an M17, well, wrong ozeki. Might even be wrong ozeki trio, since the one who can dominate mentally can't show it, and the other two who can dominate physically can't mentally, at least not yet. Asanoyama has crap for aura projection, to be honest; even Shodai beats him for that, and he's Shodai. The only recent ozeki I can think of who "dominated" were Tochinoshin and Terunofuji.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Seiyashi

[since_94 650]

43 minutes ago, Morty said:

It is not unusual for great champions to create a vacuum behind them. It happens in many sports that one individual or team is so dominant for a long time (in the way Hak has been) that there is a period of disruption after they go, or when they go into decline. Hak missing more than half the time qualifies as either of those right now for mine. Hak is more than just a once in a generation rikishi - he has been so dominant that that dominance shapes the sport around him. I'm really enjoying this period of ... *uncertainty... where anyone seems capable of winning. While the period of Hak dominance was draw dropping to watch (particularly 2007 to 2015), it could get predictable. The sumo now isn't as good and the rikishi clearly transitional, but the unpredictability makes it hard to look away and I love it.

That’s a very interesting point, not to mention a very effective analogy. Could you give some examples of dynasties and subsequent vacuums from other sports? I’m thinking of some hockey dynasties like Edmonton Oilers and New York Islanders from back in the day, but don’t rightly recall who won championships following on their heels. Most other sports, including ones I used to follow before sumo took over completely, I’m drawing a blank...

[since_94 650]

11 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Yes, but here's the important part - all of Hakuho's dominance is stuff you can't physically see.

I think this applies to Takakeisho as well. His timing is impeccable, or almost, when he’s on point. His thrusting power is uncanny. I often wonder where it comes from. You mentioned force of will before, and maybe you’re on to something. Perhaps the lad is channeling greater forces. He also has an ability to shift and dodge out a charging opponent’s way so quickly—quicker than the eye, really. I often don’t know how he does it. How do you move that much mass—that rotund sphere—out of harm’s way so fast. It’s sorcery, I tells ya. But quite often rather less visually exciting than pulling rabbits and handkerchiefs out of a hat.

[Seiyashi 4,068]

8 minutes ago, since_94 said:

I think this applies to Takakeisho as well. His timing is impeccable, or almost, when he’s on point. His thrusting power is uncanny. I often wonder where it comes from. You mentioned force of will before, and maybe you’re on to something. Perhaps the lad is channeling greater forces. He also has an ability to shift and dodge out a charging opponent’s way so quickly—quicker than the eye, really. I often don’t know how he does it. How do you move that much mass—that rotund sphere—out of harm’s way so fast. It’s sorcery, I tells ya. But quite often rather less visually exciting than pulling rabbits and handkerchiefs out of a hat.

You've put your finger on it. I didn't care for him back when he just came in like a wrecking ball and tended to bite dust straight out of the tachiai, but there's just something very very different about his sumo now than it was one year ago. It's not an exciting style, I'll grant you that, but it's a lot more - I think the word here is sublime. 

[Morty 1,469]

5 minutes ago, since_94 said:

That’s a very interesting point, not to mention a very effective analogy. Could you give some examples of dynasties and subsequent vacuums from other sports? I’m thinking of some hockey dynasties like Edmonton Oilers and New York Islanders from back in the day, but don’t rightly recall who won championships following on their heels. Most other sports, including ones I used to follow before sumo took over completely, I’m drawing a blank...

In teams sports it is more internal to a team rather than within a league. I know nothing about ice hockey, but lots of good examples in cricket. Shane Warne, the greatest leg-spin bowler Australia has ever produced, ruined spin bowling in Australia for a generation. Everyone assumed his genius would create a golden period of Australian leg spinners who would dominate the world - instead it did the exact opposite because no-one wanted to compete for that leg spinner spot, and there was a complete absence of decent spin bowlers for ten years after he retired. Likewise when Greg Chappell, Dennis Lillie and Rod Marsh all retired at the same time, the Australian team went from world beaters to laughing stocks in just one season. 

But it obviously isn't a universal analogy - a great team who dominates for a while can be replaced by another great team, or they can change the game so much that there is a period after they decline when it is open season for everyone. I think it happens more when an individual is so dominant (like Hak) that they legitimately change the sport they are part of

[lackmaker 428]

4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Terunofuji has already done enough to force an extra slot. We could see three sekiwake next year - Terunofuji, Takayasu (if he wins one more) and Takanosho.

Takayasu is more likely to move across to the east unless both Sekiwake suffer 8 losses, even them Mitakeumi could possibly move West.