Non-K-November basho 2020 Discussion (spoiler space)

[Amamaniac 2,079]

Wow.  I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament.  Perhaps the current slate of leftover (i.e., healthy) warriors leaves hardcore sumo fans wanting more, and not really finding it...

But in oozumo, there is always something to talk about ... if you look hard enough.

Today's bouts were entertaining enough.  Kotonowaka got his birthday shiroboshi win.  I'm resorting to birthdays to make these bouts interesting.  Sigh.  I was delighted to see that Enho was back in the ring today, and did not openly show any signs of having injured his back in yesterday's brutal fall off the ring.  Still, I had no expectations of him beating Ichinojo, and so he lived up to my expectations.  Wow, I'm resorting to praising my favourite wrestler for not winning.  Now that's sad.

The Shimanoumi v. Ryuden bout was quite important vis-a-vis the yusho race.  The former wrestler's victory kept the makujiri yusho dream alive.  That's kinda noteworthy.

Meisei played games with Chiyoshoma causing two false starts.  He got a cheap victory out of that.

Hoshoryu put Terutsuyoshi in his place, and moved one win away from his kachikoshi.

Top Division rookie Akua surprised me (at least), and sent golden boy Endo off the dohyo.  He got some sweet Endo kensho prize money in the process.  I keep hearing that Endo is such a master technician, but he did not display anything resembling that in the ring today.

I could go on and point out various things of interest in all the bouts, but hey ... sometimes it feels like making something out of nothing.  I don't know whether to sympathise with Forum members who are less than enthusiastic about this tournament (as we move out of the GOAT Hakuho era, oozumo is facing a crisis IMHO), or to maintain my own personal enthusiasm for the sport/show and ride out whatever phase in oozumo history we are in right now.

[serge_gva 52]

On 18/11/2020 at 10:52, pricklypomegranate said:

In my opinion, he should just cut his losses here, get the surgery for the neck/back, rest in January, come up from lower Juryo in March. I know it's a stain on the record to be demoted to Juryo before coming back up, but perceptions are starting to change about this (Terunofuji, Chiyonokuni) and he's a small wrestler and not the next Yokozuna hope. He's done significantly better than most of rikishi of his size (Mainoumi excepting) and was expected to be injury prone anyways. If he insists on continuing, it's going to be a slow, painful downhill slope and he's going to miss the sekitori buffer needed to heal.

But he will be thrown directly to makushita if he scores 2-13, then 0-15 in january, no?

[Seiyashi 4,072]

19 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Wow.  I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament.  Perhaps the current slate of leftover (i.e., healthy) warriors leaves hardcore sumo fans wanting more, and not really finding it...

But in oozumo, there is always something to talk about ... if you look hard enough.

Today's bouts were entertaining enough.  Kotonowaka got his birthday shiroboshi win.  I'm resorting to birthdays to make these bouts interesting.  Sigh.  I was delighted to see that Enho was back in the ring today, and did not openly show any signs of having injured his back in yesterday's brutal fall off the ring.  Still, I had no expectations of him beating Ichinojo, and so he lived up to my expectations.  Wow, I'm resorting to praising my favourite wrestler for not winning.  Now that's sad.

The Shimanoumi v. Ryuden bout was quite important vis-a-vis the yusho race.  The former wrestler's victory kept the makujiri yusho dream alive.  That's kinda noteworthy.

Meisei played games with Chiyoshoma causing two false starts.  He got a cheap victory out of that.

Hoshoryu put Terutsuyoshi in his place, and moved one win away from his kachikoshi.

Top Division rookie Akua surprised me (at least), and sent golden boy Endo off the dohyo.  He got some sweet Endo kensho prize money in the process.  I keep hearing that Endo is such a master technician, but he did not display anything resembling that in the ring today.

I could go on and point out various things of interest in all the bouts, but hey ... sometimes it feels like making something out of nothing.  I don't know whether to sympathise with Forum members who are less than enthusiastic about this tournament (as we move out of the GOAT Hakuho era, oozumo is facing a crisis IMHO), or to maintain my own personal enthusiasm for the sport/show and ride out whatever phase in oozumo history we are in right now.

I think the wind got taken out of this basho early with both yokozuna absent for the second time in a row, and both ozeki going kyujo within the first 5 days. Storywise, there's no imminent narrative. If Takakeisho had won the last basho, or if Terunofuji was at sekiwake with 22 wins, then we might have something to talk about, but most of the good shit got used up by the July and September bashos.

[nutzername 16]

Claim of waning interest in the Basho has forced me to abandon my lurking-only visits to this forum and add my 2 cents.

 

To me, this is a very entertaining tournament. Not the least because of Hokutofuji. Fighting-spirit prize would be well deserved after these last three days.

I'm also impressed by Takakeisho's performance, even though I'm not exactly a fan of his style. Some impressive pushing and thrusting on display.

Ryuden "The Hip" is weird but it's obviously working for him.

Ura in Juryo just makes me happy.

And finally, it's great to see a comeback of the old Takayasu which originally got me back into Sumo after a loooong break from back in the olden Eurosport days.

 

I greatly enjoy this basho, as do my two friends with whom I have a sumo conference call every other day.

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by nutzername

[Kashunowaka 300]

8 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Man, Hokutofuji can't even catch a break from the interviewer. That's one of the longest KK interviews, and when the man is obviously knackered. If Hokutofuji doesn't get the Kanto-sho this basho I'm crying foul.

I'd really love to see him getting the kanto-sho. But I think he needs to get a few more wins, especially with a 1-4 record vs sanyaku.

[Karasukurai 166]

1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

 I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament.

 

39 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I think the wind got taken out of this basho early with both yokozuna absent for the second time in a row, and both ozeki going kyujo within the first 5 days

 

It's difficult to tell isn't it? I'm sure the number of posts on here can be compared with previous tournament posts and conclusions can be drawn but we must bear in mind that the forum was down for a few days. On the the other hand, the live stream I watch online seems to have grown in terms of the number of viewers this basho. All a bit confusing.

45 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Storywise, there's no imminent narrative.

I think this spot on - there's no major storyline capturing the forum headlines; the most notable so far have perhaps been retirements which isn't directly related to the basho.

For me, I've enjoyed the tournament so far but, I have found myself eagerly waiting too for a Juryo video to be uploaded (it starts early my time) to see if Ikoi is still in one piece and praying that Ura still has knees and is winning. There's so many ex-top division guys there it's like watching makuuchi anyway!

I thought I'd post just to add to the number.

 

[Seiyashi 4,072]

42 minutes ago, Karasukurai said:

I think this spot on - there's no major storyline capturing the forum headlines; the most notable so far have perhaps been retirements which isn't directly related to the basho.

One more problem is, usually, the next basho's storylines depend on the current one (can the ozeki/rope run make good, etc). However, very early on, the nokozuna-nozeki scenario + the YDC breathing down Hakuho and Kakuryu's necks means that the next basho is crunch time no matter what happens in this basho. That makes this basho feel like a filler season, and - it's a sign of how crazy it is - absolutely no one is batting an eyelid at Shimanoumi going co-leader from M17 for the third(!) time this year, whereas if Tokushoryu and Terunofuji hadn't won and Tobizaru hadn't come close last basho to breaking a 104-year-old record, everyone would be going berserk.

[robnplunder 975]

4 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Wow.  I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament.  Perhaps the current slate of leftover (i.e., healthy) warriors leaves hardcore sumo fans wanting more, and not really finding it...

My sentiments exactly.

[Churaumi 738]

Shodai as shin-ozeki was really about it for makuuchi buzz, and that splatted early. Terunofuji might drive some interest next time with a possible ozeki run starting up, but that's going to be overshadowed by yokozuna drama. Ura might be the feel-good story of the basho. I am most excited by Shimanoumi possibly being the third M17 to win this year, but even the Kyokai seems committed to destroying that little bit of buzz. Unless he beats Takakeisho and then keeps his lead, which is a long shot but no longer a shot than Tokushoryu.

[Kaminariyuki 498]

6 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Wow.  I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament.  Perhaps the current slate of leftover (i.e., healthy) warriors leaves hardcore sumo fans wanting more, and not really finding it...

But in oozumo, there is always something to talk about ... if you look hard enough.

Today's bouts were entertaining enough.  Kotonowaka got his birthday shiroboshi win.  I'm resorting to birthdays to make these bouts interesting.  Sigh.  I was delighted to see that Enho was back in the ring today, and did not openly show any signs of having injured his back in yesterday's brutal fall off the ring.  Still, I had no expectations of him beating Ichinojo, and so he lived up to my expectations.  Wow, I'm resorting to praising my favourite wrestler for not winning.  Now that's sad.

The Shimanoumi v. Ryuden bout was quite important vis-a-vis the yusho race.  The former wrestler's victory kept the makujiri yusho dream alive.  That's kinda noteworthy.

Meisei played games with Chiyoshoma causing two false starts.  He got a cheap victory out of that.

Hoshoryu put Terutsuyoshi in his place, and moved one win away from his kachikoshi.

Top Division rookie Akua surprised me (at least), and sent golden boy Endo off the dohyo.  He got some sweet Endo kensho prize money in the process.  I keep hearing that Endo is such a master technician, but he did not display anything resembling that in the ring today.

I could go on and point out various things of interest in all the bouts, but hey ... sometimes it feels like making something out of nothing.  I don't know whether to sympathise with Forum members who are less than enthusiastic about this tournament (as we move out of the GOAT Hakuho era, oozumo is facing a crisis IMHO), or to maintain my own personal enthusiasm for the sport/show and ride out whatever phase in oozumo history we are in right now.

Wow, I'm a bit taken back. I'm completely grooving on this basho even though a couple of my favorite rikishi are either doing terribly or were kyujo from the get go. As mentioned by Nuzername, Ura just makes me happy too, and I love his slightly unusual sumo. Today's straight arm push and then charge was super fun and not the standard routine. Enho, yes, he could drop to juryo if he doesn't make a final push. As for his back, I'm not so sure it needs an operation. He was walking normally after today's bout (not getting pancake crushed today). The orthopedic folks have made a lot of progress on knees and hips, but I'd be rather wary of letting the knife boys into my spinal area.

This is the first tournament where I have to watch three divisions to keep up with my story lines of interest, and I think the sumo has been spirited and high quality. Why, I only find myself missing Hakuho occasionally. :)  Will we have a third M-17 yusho for 2020? I think it's possible. Shimanoumi looked really good today against Ryuden, who has also been wrestling well.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

6 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Wow.  I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament. 

I’ve just been busy. Lots of OT at work and I also joined a gym recently which so far I’ve been good about going to. I’ve been reading the forum but had less time to contribute.

(Incidentally, Natto Sumo videos make an excellent treadmill timer and help relieve some of the tedium of running. Pro tip.)

[Kaminariyuki 498]

6 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Wow.  I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament.  Perhaps the current slate of leftover (i.e., healthy) warriors leaves hardcore sumo fans wanting more, and not really finding it...

But in oozumo, there is always something to talk about ... if you look hard enough.

Today's bouts were entertaining enough.  Kotonowaka got his birthday shiroboshi win.  I'm resorting to birthdays to make these bouts interesting.  Sigh.  I was delighted to see that Enho was back in the ring today, and did not openly show any signs of having injured his back in yesterday's brutal fall off the ring.  Still, I had no expectations of him beating Ichinojo, and so he lived up to my expectations.  Wow, I'm resorting to praising my favourite wrestler for not winning.  Now that's sad.

The Shimanoumi v. Ryuden bout was quite important vis-a-vis the yusho race.  The former wrestler's victory kept the makujiri yusho dream alive.  That's kinda noteworthy.

Meisei played games with Chiyoshoma causing two false starts.  He got a cheap victory out of that.

Hoshoryu put Terutsuyoshi in his place, and moved one win away from his kachikoshi.

Top Division rookie Akua surprised me (at least), and sent golden boy Endo off the dohyo.  He got some sweet Endo kensho prize money in the process.  I keep hearing that Endo is such a master technician, but he did not display anything resembling that in the ring today.

I could go on and point out various things of interest in all the bouts, but hey ... sometimes it feels like making something out of nothing.  I don't know whether to sympathise with Forum members who are less than enthusiastic about this tournament (as we move out of the GOAT Hakuho era, oozumo is facing a crisis IMHO), or to maintain my own personal enthusiasm for the sport/show and ride out whatever phase in oozumo history we are in right now.

I looked back through Honbasho Talk for 16 months , or so, and Amamaniac is correct, the discussion is a bit thin (scale for interest?). There have been a couple of bashos with only twenty something pages and one in the thirties, but a couple up in the 50 something pages of chatter. Let's gambarize and get this basho discussion cranked up!

[Morty 1,484]

7 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Wow.  I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament.  Perhaps the current slate of leftover (i.e., healthy) warriors leaves hardcore sumo fans wanting more, and not really finding it...

 

 I'm just as interested as I ever was, but there is an awful lot going on in the world right now which means I can't give it as much attention as I'd like. I suspect a lot of people are in that boat.                                                         

[Sue 498]

7 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Wow.  I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament.  Perhaps the current slate of leftover (i.e., healthy) warriors leaves hardcore sumo fans wanting more, and not really finding it...

No, I'm finding this basho fascinating. I just tend not to post when I don't have anything interesting to say.

[Thorbjarn 214]

I can only speak for myself, we have a second Covid induced Lockdown, which means I'm working from home, which messes with my daily routine. A lot. 

I find this Basho very intriguing with lots of great performances, but I rarely find the time to post here (not that I'm posting THAT much anyway). Shodai and Asanoyama being out is kind of a bummer, but Takakeisho impresses me. I just like his demeanor and the way he seemingly is unimpressed with pressure and such. Terunofuji's comeback is marvelous and I'm actually really happy for him. Shimanoumi is having a great tournament, but I would really prefer a Takakeisho Yusho. I just like the idea of an Ozeki getting the trophy.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

Just for the sake of contributing something today, if Terunofuji does get the yusho, it will be only the third komusubi yusho this century. That’s something of a sub-plot to capture your interest. Takakeisho was the last Komusubi-ranked winner exactly two years ago at Kyushu 2018. Kaio was the only other way back in May 2000. There have only ever been nine Komusubi yusho and only five in the six-basho era.

For extra trivia, he’d also technically be only the second Komusubi to win the yusho in his ‘debut’ at the rank, as thanks to a quirk of banzuke-making, the ex-Ozeki skipped Komusubi on his way up last time. (The other one was Annenyama/Haguroyama in May 1957.)

Edited November 20, 2020 by Eikokurai

[Kaninoyama 1,724]

I'm watching every day as I always do, and enjoying every day as I always do. Some basho are more exciting than others. Even with the upper ranks depleted we still have some interesting story lines, including:

• Ura's resurgence.
• Midorifuji on the cusp of becoming another exciting new Makuuchi rikishi.
• Shimanoumi with a chance to pull a Tokushoryu.
• Takakeisho with a chance for his first Ozeki yusho.
• And the most likely outcome: Terunofuji running the tables and beginning his own Ozeki comeback run. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Kaninoyama

[robnplunder 975]

There were times when the basho is on, the forum members were posting as bouts happen.   Now, more often than not, there is just dead silence.  This is anecdotal, of course.  So, take it as you see fit.

[Reonito 1,387]

9 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

That makes this basho feel like a filler season, and - it's a sign of how crazy it is - absolutely no one is batting an eyelid at Shimanoumi going co-leader from M17 for the third(!) time this year, whereas if Tokushoryu and Terunofuji hadn't won and Tobizaru hadn't come close last basho to breaking a 104-year-old record, everyone would be going berserk.

M17 yusho are best in small doses. (And I don't think it makes sense to lump Terunofuji with the likes of Tokushoryu and Shimanoumi.)

[Seiyashi 4,072]

13 minutes ago, Reonito said:

M17 yusho are best in small doses. (And I don't think it makes sense to lump Terunofuji with the likes of Tokushoryu and Shimanoumi.)

I agree ability-wise, and Terunofuji's redemption yusho has very different connotations from Tokushoryu's or even Shimanoumi's, but it's still a makujiri yusho that as you said comes best in small doses.

[code_number3 698]

Update for lower division yusho

Jonokuchi: Oguruma’s Jk29e Nogami

Jonidan: Naruto beya’s Ofukasawa vs Osuzuki. Playoff on senshuraku

Sandanme: Miyagino’s Hokuseiho

Edited November 20, 2020 by code_number3

[hakutorizakura 610]

5 hours ago, Morty said:

 I'm just as interested as I ever was, but there is an awful lot going on in the world right now which means I can't give it as much attention as I'd like. I suspect a lot of people are in that boat.                                                         

I just want to post #metoo 

[pricklypomegranate 730]

13 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Wow.  I'm detecting a definite decline in Forum interest in the ongoing tournament.  Perhaps the current slate of leftover (i.e., healthy) warriors leaves hardcore sumo fans wanting more, and not really finding it...

I could go on and point out various things of interest in all the bouts, but hey ... sometimes it feels like making something out of nothing.  I don't know whether to sympathise with Forum members who are less than enthusiastic about this tournament (as we move out of the GOAT Hakuho era, oozumo is facing a crisis IMHO), or to maintain my own personal enthusiasm for the sport/show and ride out whatever phase in oozumo history we are in right now.

Yes, I do feel like the bouts are rather bland, but it's going to blow up next basho, especially if Takakeisho wins. And yes, you are right in pointing out that the makuuchi yusho race is a mere tip of the tip of the sumo iceberg. The sumo world in general is having many many developments, and for a spring chicken like me it definitely gets me through. Don't lose hope! You are one of my favourite contributors! 

13 hours ago, serge_gva said:

But he will be thrown directly to makushita if he scores 2-13, then 0-15 in january, no?

Nope, don't think so - he'll be juryo joi (J2 - J4) in January if he doesnt get 4 or 5 wins, and then he'll be in like J14/J13, so he'll be fine, I think. But he definitely cannot screw it up at that point. Besides, even if he is unlucky and gets into the makushita joi, the long term benefits are enormous. And I'm sure he can win it and come back up - it's not just his talent, but also the fact that there are few stable shin-juryo rikishi - I cannot name a single one that has that same level of talent in the lower juryo/makushita joi or in that proximity, maybe Roga, Naya and Hokuseiho excepting (and all untested, mind you). The only one I can possibly think of in the past year is Midorifuji, who is of similar stature as Enho. Small (or smaller than average) is where it's at these days. And hey, it might give Enho the opportunity to win all 6 division titles, something only Tochiazuma and Haguroyama ever did. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by pricklypomegranate

[Asashosakari 19,113]

6 hours ago, Kaminariyuki said:

I looked back through Honbasho Talk for 16 months , or so, and Amamaniac is correct, the discussion is a bit thin (scale for interest?). There have been a couple of bashos with only twenty something pages and one in the thirties, but a couple up in the 50 something pages of chatter. Let's gambarize and get this basho discussion cranked up!

A lot of the time that was quantity over quality due to one or a couple single events during the basho that absolutely everybody felt the urge to chime in about.

[jsolo 106]

Hokutofuji, Day 9-12. Some interesting facts:

"If you don't feel tired, you'll be lying." (Source: Nikkansports)

Hokutofuji after yesterday's marathon match. Today he had another. In fact, from Day 9-12, he has fought FIVE matches (one was a replay of a judgement too close to call). In those 4 days, he has fought the equivalent more than an entire Basho.

 

Day 9: 26.8 seconds for an Oshidashi (Frontal Push Out) win over Kagayaki

 

Day 10: 90 seconds in a battle with Takarafuji. Then Hokutofuji won the replay via Oshidashi in 16.1 seconds

 

Day 11: 93.4 seconds to outlast Endo by Tsukiotoshi (Frontal Thrust Down)

Day 12: 35.3 seconds to beat Tochinosin by Yorikiri (Frontal Force Out).

 

4 wins, 0 losses, 261.6 seconds (6 minutes, 21 seconds). That is an average of 52.3 seconds a match, calculating for 5 matches instead of 4. To give a bit of context to that, the average of the 272 matches in the September 2020 Basho was 8.5 seconds. Shodai, the winner of the Basho, was a little more economical. His average per match time was 5.4 seconds.

The fact that Hokutofuji has survived is amazing enough. The fact that he has won all of those matches is astonishing.