Arashio Criticizes China

[Gaijingai 1,591]

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2020/10/a31a04c88840-sumo-elder-criticizes-chinas-banning-of-mongolian-language-education.html

[Shinobi Steve 146]

Since he is Mongolian, I can totally understand his anger. I'm sure he's not the only one who feels the same way. 

[Yamanashi 3,874]

Ah. I misread as "Araiso" and thought "Woah, look at Kise, getting all political!"  However, good for Sokokurai, who was Chinese, making it more pointed.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

I’m sure I saw him say in a documentary that he doesn’t really speak Mongolian very well himself and is more comfortable speaking Japanese than his ancestral language. He wasn’t comfortable with Mandarin either.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

41 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I’m sure I saw him say in a documentary that he doesn’t really speak Mongolian very well himself and is more comfortable speaking Japanese than his ancestral language. He wasn’t comfortable with Mandarin either.

So how did he get by growing up in China?

[RabidJohn 1,816]

8 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

So how did he get by growing up in China?

He'll have spoken the same Mongolian dialect as his parents, but I can believe that he no longer has much facility with the language after nearly 2 decades living in Japan and speaking Japanese.

This situation reminds me of what the English tried to do to the Welsh. Didn't work...

[Eikokurai 3,437]

15 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

So how did he get by growing up in China?

Lots of people aren’t that proficient in Mandarin, especially from minority groups which aren’t as assimilated (though the Mongolians are generally, particularly compared to Uighur and Tibetan). As for Mongolian, if I’m remembering the interview he gave correctly, he said he spoke it growing up but has been using Japanese for so long it’s replaced his Mongolian and he has to work to speak it now. The interviewer was from China and Sokokurai (as he was) said he’d prefer to interview in Japanese as he’s more comfortable expressing himself that way now. His Mandarin was fine, but it did have the sound of a fairly proficient non-native, not someone who speaks it that often.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

15 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

He'll have spoken the same Mongolian dialect as his parents, but I can believe that he no longer has much facility with the language after nearly 2 decades living in Japan and speaking Japanese.

This situation reminds me of what the English tried to do to the Welsh. Didn't work...

Oh sure, he's forgotten his native language. Must be hard being the sole Mongolian in sumo.

[RabidJohn 1,816]

8 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

Oh sure, he's forgotten his native language. 

Don't recall anyone saying that.

The relevant phrases are "...doesn’t really speak Mongolian very well", "no longer has much facility with the language", and "...has to work to speak it now".

I worked with an angling guide in Spain who was British by birth, but he'd lived in Spain since he was 12. He could speak English, but with a distinct Spanish accent, and every now and then he only had the Spanish word. He explained to me that at some point in his late teens/early 20s he realised he was thinking in Spanish. Even though English was his first language, Spanish had become his primary language.

[Raishu 208]

20 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

Don't recall anyone saying that.

The relevant phrases are "...doesn’t really speak Mongolian very well", "no longer has much facility with the language", and "...has to work to speak it now".

I worked with an angling guide in Spain who was British by birth, but he'd lived in Spain since he was 12. He could speak English, but with a distinct Spanish accent, and every now and then he only had the Spanish word. He explained to me that at some point in his late teens/early 20s he realised he was thinking in Spanish. Even though English was his first language, Spanish had become his primary language.

That phenomena is called "language attrition" and can be observed quite often, when someone has left his/her native speaking environment for a longer period of time. Your example of the British man living in Spain prefectly fits the pattern. Especially children are more prone to forgetting about their first language, but basically, the amount of time is the major contributing factor overall.

Hence, Sokokurai's preference of Japanese makes perfect sense, since he has been using this language primarily for the largest part of his life. Although there are several other Mongolian speaking Rikishi in Ozumo, we don't know a) how often he interacts with these guys and b) whether their encounters happen in groups where Japanese is predominant?

It has also become a field of research: https://languageattrition.org/

[Eikokurai 3,437]

2 hours ago, Raishu said:

That phenomena is called "language attrition" and can be observed quite often, when someone has left his/her native speaking environment for a longer period of time. Your example of the British man living in Spain prefectly fits the pattern. Especially children are more prone to forgetting about their first language, but basically, the amount of time is the major contributing factor overall.

Hence, Sokokurai's preference of Japanese makes perfect sense, since he has been using this language primarily for the largest part of his life. Although there are several other Mongolian speaking Rikishi in Ozumo, we don't know a) how often he interacts with these guys and b) whether their encounters happen in groups where Japanese is predominant?

It has also become a field of research: https://languageattrition.org/

Language attrition can even occur when you do use the language regularly if the environment is restricted. I myself use English all day every day here in China, so I’m not losing it, but there are certain topics where I’ve either completely forgotten the relevant vocabulary or it’s buried deep and I have to think about it. For example, if anything about DIY comes up I struggle to think of the name for tools or parts of the house because I haven’t lived in a home environment where the topic is discussed very often. Growing up my stepdad was always working on something so I knew a lot of the words, but now I’ve essentially lost that part of my lexicon. I’ve also internalized some Chinglish to the point where it no longer sounds wrong and I can’t always remember what the correct English is (which can be problematic for an editor, which I am). 

[Eikokurai 3,437]

3 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Don't recall anyone saying that.

The relevant phrases are "...doesn’t really speak Mongolian very well", "no longer has much facility with the language", and "...has to work to speak it now".

More precisely, I was loosely quoting that he himself felt his Mongolian wasn’t very good. That may be true or it may be modesty on his part. Either way, he seems to prefer using Japanese now. 

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

11 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Don't recall anyone saying that.

The relevant phrases are "...doesn’t really speak Mongolian very well", "no longer has much facility with the language", and "...has to work to speak it now".

I worked with an angling guide in Spain who was British by birth, but he'd lived in Spain since he was 12. He could speak English, but with a distinct Spanish accent, and every now and then he only had the Spanish word. He explained to me that at some point in his late teens/early 20s he realised he was thinking in Spanish. Even though English was his first language, Spanish had become his primary language.

So the guy that started pro sumo in Japan at age 20 is the equivalent of your fictional Spanish fishing guide? Come on man!

[Eikokurai 3,437]

I went in search of that documentary he did with the Chinese reporter and found another one instead in which he appears to be speaking pretty effortlessly in Mongolian (to my untrained ear), so I’ll put those comments in the other documentary down to him being modest about his skills. I’m still confident he said he’s more comfortable using Japanese these days though, since it’s what he uses every day.

[RabidJohn 1,816]

@Otokonoyama Bit of an outdated web page, but here's my 'fictional' fishing guide: http://www.carpandcatbussters.com/stars/peter-staggs.htm

There are other people here talking about language attrition: it's a real thing. Why the hell do you think I'd lie about knowing someone who'd experienced it?

[Akinomaki 40,666]

5 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

I went in search of that documentary he did with the Chinese reporter and found another one instead in which he appears to be speaking pretty effortlessly in Mongolian (to my untrained ear), so I’ll put those comments in the other documentary down to him being modest about his skills. I’m still confident he said he’s more comfortable using Japanese these days though, since it’s what he uses every day.

Or as a polite way to avoid having to speak Mandarin - by claiming to prefer Japanese even to his (more) native language - I don't think he was already Japanese at the time of that documentary, but surely in the process of obtaining the nationality

Edited October 24, 2020 by Akinomaki

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

6 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

@Otokonoyama Bit of an outdated web page, but here's my 'fictional' fishing guide: http://www.carpandcatbussters.com/stars/peter-staggs.htm

There are other people here talking about language attrition: it's a real thing. Why the hell do you think I'd lie about knowing someone who'd experienced it?

Probably just growing up with dozens of immigrant kids as part of the cultural mosaic of Canada. It was only dozens as I come from a very small town. At university it was in the hundreds (small school), and as part of the workforce it was in the thousands (in my local area). I expect it has grown significantly since then.

I suppose I should add that in my experience language attrition is a problem for those who have not natively acquired a language. By age 12 there will rarely be accent changes no matter the change in environment. Go have a listen to someone like Zuby on Facebook or his YouTube and his podcast. A Nigerian born in the UK who grew up going to an American school in Saudi Arabia until his parents sent him back to school in the UK from the age of 11. Sounds American. As he was raised. Wow. Quelle Surprise.

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Otokonoyama

[RabidJohn 1,816]

1 hour ago, Otokonoyama said:

By age 12 there will rarely be accent changes no matter the change in environment.

I'll call your bluff on that one.

Have a listen to Ringo Starr. His Liverpudlian accent has been distinctly coloured by his post-Beatles life in California. He was way older than 12 when that started.

I was born and raised in Lincolnshire and I had a Lincolnshire accent. Then I went to work in the Yorkshire coalfield when I was 17. By the time I left I had a distinct South Yorkshire accent. People always think I'm a Yorkshireman, but I'm not.

Accent and language are 2 different things.

[Asojima 2,874]

In Mongolia, he used childlike vocabulary to communicate childlike thoughts.  In Japan, he uses Japanese vocabulary to communicate adulthood thoughts.  His childhood thoughts are long gone, and probably mostly forgotten.  He is living and breathing his adulthood thoughts and is more comfortable using Japanese to express them. Makes a lot of sense to me.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,275]

The man himself says he's more comfortable in Japanese then it would seem to me that he is more comfortable in Japanese. I wouldn't doubt him.

I've seen people start to struggle with language attrition in as little as 3 years, 15+ years is not really surprising.

[Yamanashi 3,874]

6 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I'll call your bluff on that one.

Have a listen to Ringo Starr. His Liverpudlian accent has been distinctly coloured by his post-Beatles life in California. He was way older than 12 when that started.

I was born and raised in Lincolnshire and I had a Lincolnshire accent. Then I went to work in the Yorkshire coalfield when I was 17. By the time I left I had a distinct South Yorkshire accent. People always think I'm a Yorkshireman, but I'm not.

Accent and language are 2 different things.

I'm getting confused.  Which one of you is Skinner, and which one is Chomsky?

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

10 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I'll call your bluff on that one.

Have a listen to Ringo Starr. His Liverpudlian accent has been distinctly coloured by his post-Beatles life in California. He was way older than 12 when that started.

I was born and raised in Lincolnshire and I had a Lincolnshire accent. Then I went to work in the Yorkshire coalfield when I was 17. By the time I left I had a distinct South Yorkshire accent. People always think I'm a Yorkshireman, but I'm not.

Accent and language are 2 different things.

Sure, one can alter their accent to be better understood or to play a role, but they don't maintain the facade when they call their mum on the blower or stop by the old hometown.

[RabidJohn 1,816]

9 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I'm getting confused.  Which one of you is Skinner, and which one is Chomsky?

Seeing as we're discussing language loss, neither.

[Eikokurai 3,437]

16 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I'll call your bluff on that one.

Have a listen to Ringo Starr. His Liverpudlian accent has been distinctly coloured by his post-Beatles life in California. He was way older than 12 when that started.

I was born and raised in Lincolnshire and I had a Lincolnshire accent. Then I went to work in the Yorkshire coalfield when I was 17. By the time I left I had a distinct South Yorkshire accent. People always think I'm a Yorkshireman, but I'm not.

Accent and language are 2 different things.

I concur. My true accent is that of a working class but educated and well spoken English southerner. Basically, I speak like a BBC newsreader. Or rather I used to. My accent has altered after 14 years of living in East Asia. Some sounds have become Americanized, some more like Australian. My family notice the difference, to the point where I make an effort to use my old accent when I go home to spare myself the little digs at my weird voice. It’s not easy. I’ve got a real habit of e.g. sounding ‘r’ in words like ‘car’ now.

Also, yeah, accent isn’t language.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Eikokurai

[RabidJohn 1,816]

8 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

I concur. My true accent is that of a working class but educated and well spoken English southerner. Basically, I speak like a BBC newsreader. Or rather I used to. My accent has altered after 14 years of living in East Asia. Some sounds have become Americanized, some more like Australian. My family notice the difference, to the point where I make an effort to use my old accent when I go home to spare myself the little digs at my weird voice. It’s not easy. I’ve got a real habit of e.g. sounding ‘r’ in words like ‘car’ now.

Also, yeah, accent isn’t language.

Once on a visit to an opencast braunkohl mine in Germany we were shown around by a bloke who spoke excellent English, but with a peculiar almost-German accent and inflection. We asked where he was from and were surprised to discover he was an Englishman who'd been living and working in Germany for about 15 years. We mentioned that he didn't sound British and he replied, "Zo I haff been tolt by my parents."

People have a tendency to speak their native language in the way they're most accustomed to hearing it, and he'd been conversing in English almost exclusively with Germans for years.

---

However, I'm going to agree with Otokonoyama here and say people tend not the lose accents associated with their native language when they're speaking another language. French people speaking English nearly always sound French to me. Similarly I imagine Sokokurai sounds somewhat Mongolian-Chinese when speaking Japanese to Japanese people.

There were still a couple of old 'Bevan Boys' at the colliery when I started. (Former Polish refugees who came over with the escaping pilots in 1939, but were too young to fight. Aneurin Bevan had the bright idea of 'conscripting' them to the mines to free up able-bodied men from a reserved occupation.) After over 40 years they spoke fluent colloquial South Yorkshire English, but still with Polish accents.