Kintamayama

Preparations of the Y/O- November 2020

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20 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

It'd be interesting to see if the YDC and NSK come to disagreements about Hakuho. Kakuryu is probably a bit too far gone without a major new justification, but the YDC might not take too kindly to Isegahama's acceptance of the situation.

Why do all the great ones have to be so difficult, so divisive... 

If it does come down to it, I am bringing the popcorn and the chair (Laughing...)

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56 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:
1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

It'd be interesting to see if the YDC and NSK come to disagreements about Hakuho. Kakuryu is probably a bit too far gone without a major new justification, but the YDC might not take too kindly to Isegahama's acceptance of the situation.

Why do all the great ones have to be so difficult, so divisive... 

If it does come down to it, I am bringing the popcorn and the chair 

Chris Gould is wondering if Hakuho's withdrawal is partially designed to shield Kakuryu by drawing some criticism towards himself, especially given the differences in treatment between Kakuryu and Kisenosato. Now that he mentions it, it's an interesting angle. More YDC interviews will reveal if this ploy works.

P.S. So should this basho now be called the NokNok basho? :D

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"All he can do is get ready for January , do or die.." said his Oyakata.  There's that "do or die" again.."

Miyagino has retracted his statement today. "In yesterday's interview i said it was a "'do or die" basho for Hakuhou. It is by no means my intention - it was a rash statement made by myself and I am deeply reflecting  upon it. I would like to correct that and cancel it .. I am really very sorry about that.." said Miyagino in a written statement to the Kyokai.

I can only imagine the shouting at the heya last night.

Edited by Kintamayama
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Hakuhou, in a document to the Kyokai: "I'll  be kyujo from the November basho. I deeply apologize to all the fans. I want to return to the dohyo 100% fit and will continue to  do what I can with all my power and effort to get well. "

Miyagino, after apologizing for the DoD: "He is still not his usual self yet physically and has reinjured his left leg in training. The swelling on both his knees has not gone down. I have decided that at this point he has not healed in time for the basho and is not in perfect condition and have asked him to go kyujo for November."

Official certificate: Right knee joint surgery, post-operative blood flow-two weeks to heal. 

It's the first time multiple Yokozunae have gone kyujo from day 1 in two consecutive bashos since the 15 day system was established in May 1949.

Edited by Kintamayama
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56 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

It's the first time multiple Yokozunae have gone kyujo from day 1 in two consecutive bashos since the 15 day system was established in May 1949.

A decidedly dubious distinction indeed. I was looking at old calendars today from two 4 Yokozuna eras (Onikuni, Chiyonofuji, Hokutoumi, Asahifuji) and (Takanohana, Wakanohana, Musashimaru, Akebono) and feeling a bit like theses are sad days to be a sumo fan, in comparison. Like we’re getting a weak, watered down version of the sport, compared to its heyday(s). 

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3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Chris Gould is wondering if Hakuho's withdrawal is partially designed to shield Kakuryu by drawing some criticism towards himself, especially given the differences in treatment between Kakuryu and Kisenosato. Now that he mentions it, it's an interesting angle. More YDC interviews will reveal if this ploy works.

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Miyagino has retracted his statement today. "In yesterday's interview i said it was a "'do or die" basho for Hakuhou. It is by no means my intention - it was a rash statement made by myself and I am deeply reflecting  upon it. I would like to correct that and cancel it .. I am really very sorry about that.." said Miyagino in a written statement to the Kyokai.

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Hakuhou, in a document to the Kyokai: "I'll  be kyujo from the November basho. I deeply apologize to all the fans. I want to return to the dohyo 100% fit and will continue to  do what I can with all my power and effort to get well. "

Miyagino, after apologizing for the DoD: "He is still not his usual self yet physically and has reinjured his left leg in training. The swelling on both his knees has not gone down. I have decided that at this point he has not healed in time for the basho and is not in perfect condition and have asked him to go kyujo for November."

Official certificate: Right knee joint surgery, post-operative blood flow-two weeks to heal. 

It's the first time multiple Yokozunae have gone kyujo from day 1 in two consecutive bashos since the 15 day system was established in May 1949.

I do agree with you @Seiyashi - Chris might be on to something here. Hakuho might be pretty heartless on the dohyo but when it comes down to life and death I think he doesn't mind contributing at his expense, especially for his Mongolian compatriots. I believe he contributed to Shotenro's cancer fund, and I'm very glad that Shotenro is still alive. Like I said, he is almost like an anti-hero character - not the mad emperor the Japanese media portrays him to be. What's up with all the deranged Hakuho photos in the news articles? (Laughing...)

But yeah, I do disagree with Chris sometimes, but he is absolutely bang-on about Miyagino being ready to engage in a stand-off against the YDC. I don't know if Miyagino's genuinely feels that Hakuho is in a "do or die" desperate situation or is just trying to pander to the YDC. Nevertheless, it doesn't matter. I do appreciate Miyagino's self-awareness and willingness to break out of the omniscient oyakata illusion. He realised that his statement was botching his deshi's cause against the YDC (which I think is justified) and was willing to humiliate himself retracting his statement. If what he says about making the decision to pull Hakuho out is true, he's done very well in resisting outside pressure to prioritise his deshi's future performance and safeguarding his dream. If it is true that part of Hakuho's decision to withdraw was to support Kakuryu, then he has inherited some of his oyakata's positive behaviours, and that's a win for me. I don't think Miyagino's done much wrong as a stablemaster. It's more like the universe keeps throwing bad things at him in exchange for the greatest rikishi being served on a plate. 

The YDC can keep barking for all it wants, but if Miyagino stands firm and the NSK remains indifferent, our Master White is pretty much bulletproof. 

It's really a damn shame about the kyujo record, but in my opinion, it's little to do with the Yokozunas themselves - longevity isn't a bad thing, but I think its just a bunch of unfortunate events cooking up a perfect storm. Yokozuna who could have been worthy rivals being kicked out due to scandal, the university sumo trend and hence lack of successors, Japan's socio-economic developments, etc. 

Edited by pricklypomegranate
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Asanoyama will be the highest ranking participant wants to be the participant with the highest awareness this tournament. He faces Kiribayama on day 1 and Terunofuji on day 2. "As the top guy I have to  make this basho exciting. Being aware of that,  I shall battle for the 15 days," he said. He is on a two bout losing streak against  Terunofuji. "I've lost two straight to him, and I know that in order to advance upwards, I have to be able to beat him, because if not, it won't add a win to the bout before.. I need to forget that I lost to him and would like to concentrate on that day's bout fully," he added. This will be his Oyakata's last basho before he retires. In an interview a few days back Takasago Oyakata said he hoped Asanoyama won't start with three consecutive losses like he did last basho. "I have taken that to heart. He is right. I myself certainly don't want that to happen again.. I'd like to gift him with a yusho!" summed Asanoyama..

Edited by Kintamayama
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13 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

In an interview a few days back Takasago Oyakatahe said he hoped Asanoyama won't start with three consecutive losses like he did last basho. "I have taken that to heart. He is right. I myself certainly don't want that to happen again.. I'd like to gift him with a yusho!" summed Asanoyama..

Quite ironically, I have the feeling that by wanting to avoid starting with three losses, Asanoyama's just jinxed himself into trying too hard. For all the alleged superiority of his yotsu-zumo, he has miles to go before he can match Takakeisho's head game.

42 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:

I do appreciate Miyagino's self-awareness and willingness to break out of the omniscient oyakata illusion. He realised that his statement was botching his deshi's cause against the YDC (which I think is justified) and was willing to humiliate himself retracting his statement. If what he says about making the decision to pull Hakuho out is true, he's done very well in resisting outside pressure to prioritise his deshi's future performance and safeguarding his dream. If it is true that part of Hakuho's decision to withdraw was to support Kakuryu, then he has inherited some of his oyakata's positive behaviours, and that's a win for me. I don't think Miyagino's done much wrong as a stablemaster. It's more like the universe keeps throwing bad things at him in exchange for the greatest rikishi being served on a plate. 

Yeah, I've never seen a stablemaster jump backwards quite like that (admittedly in a rather short time following sumo). It's odd because normally, you'd think Miyagino-oyakata would be a bit more careful with his words especially since no one is yet calling for Hakuho's head effective next basho, and there really was no talk of Hakuho being shintai. I might be overreading things but if there was indeed the idea to shield Kakuryu with Hakuho's kyujo, then I suspect that the shintai statement and the retraction was deliberate as part of the strategy to draw attention to Hakuho instead. 

Of course it could also be that Hakuho simply realises his body won't hold up to a full basho, has nicked something else, and has just decided to go kyujo the day after Miyagino hit up some strong sake. The truth is probably somewhere in between, and if it keeps Kakuryu in the sport past next January one way or another, that's a win for me too.

Edited by Seiyashi

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1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Asanoyama will be the highest ranking participant this tournament.

You sure?

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8 minutes ago, Gernobono said:

You sure?

Asanoyama isn't the highest ranking rikishi this tournament, Takakeisho is, since he is Ozeki East.

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2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Asanoyama will be the highest ranking participant to finish this tournament.

fixed

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6 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

P.S. So should this basho now be called the NokNok basho? :D

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Snot.

Snot who?

'Snot a yokozuna 

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3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Yeah, I've never seen a stablemaster jump backwards quite like that (admittedly in a rather short time following sumo). It's odd because normally, you'd think Miyagino-oyakata would be a bit more careful with his words especially since no one is yet calling for Hakuho's head effective next basho, and there really was no talk of Hakuho being shintai. 

3 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

I do appreciate Miyagino's self-awareness and willingness to break out of the omniscient oyakata illusion. He realised that his statement was botching his deshi's cause against the YDC (which I think is justified) and was willing to humiliate himself retracting his statement.

Don't rule out the possibility either that with the clock running down on his time as an oyakata, any perceived humiliation or impediment to his influence may not really matter that much. It's not like he's in the mix to be the next riji-cho ;)

I do wonder however whether he has any influence at all on the conversation to bestow ichidai toshiyori status on Hakuho. Would be curious if anyone has intel on how that works and if the shisho of the dai-yokozuna in question has any say in the matter.

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1 hour ago, Gernobono said:

You sure?

In my mind he is, and that's what's important.. What was actually written was "he showed the highest awareness of participation."

Seppuku.

Edited by Kintamayama

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"I just want to concentrate on doing my own sumo," said new Ozeki Shoudai. He has asked not to know his rivals for the first two days (Wakatakakage and Kiribayama , respectively), just like last basho. "I just don't want to think about it until day one. My condition? I was able to prepare as always, same menu. I first need to get my kachikoshi, then, I may start thinking of a possibility of another yusho," he summed.

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1 hour ago, Gernobono said:

Harakiri should be enough

The next dohyo-iri could get edgey.

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2 hours ago, themistyseas said:

Don't rule out the possibility either that with the clock running down on his time as an oyakata, any perceived humiliation or impediment to his influence may not really matter that much. It's not like he's in the mix to be the next riji-cho ;)

I do wonder however whether he has any influence at all on the conversation to bestow ichidai toshiyori status on Hakuho. Would be curious if anyone has intel on how that works and if the shisho of the dai-yokozuna in question has any say in the matter.

You are right in saying Miyagino will never be rijicho. He's a committee member (iin), but has never sniffed close to a leadership position. The hierarchy of rikishi usually continues to oyakata ranks, with leadership positions usually restricted to sanyaku members, and rijicho usually reserved for yokozunas only. But Miyagino going kamikaze on his reputation because of Father Time is definitely not the reason, for several reasons: 

  1. He's still got plenty of time left. 2 as a regular oyakata, 7 if he becomes a consultant. A lot of things can happen in 2, let alone 7 years. 
  2. If he makes a deadly mistake and is forced to retire, Hakuho will lose his shisho >20 years, and that is going to bring major chaos to his career, which is quite precarious at the moment. That's going to make a major dent on the Olympic dream.  
  3. If Takashima oyakata doesn't take over, rikishi of extreme high value (Hakuho, Enho, Ishiura, and to a smaller extent, Hokuseiho) are going to be traded elsewhere, even if Hakuho immediately intais (he has to do a mandatory 1 year period of service before becoming a stablemaster, I think). Not only are the rikishi going to take some time to get use to their environment, Isegahama-ichimon members are probably going to be fighting over themselves for these rikishi, or trying to push responsibility of managing Hakuho, which is a Herculean feat. 

I think it's more like Miyagino-oyakata fell short of the public and Kyokai's expectation of an oyakata-deshi relationship. Compared to his deshi, regardless of whether he is the greatest of all time, Miyagino oyakata is supposed to be infallible and omniscient. His apology for his poor choice of wording is an implied acknowledgement of having wronged Hakuho. Some Japanese observers have noted (an observation jokingly implied by @Kintamayama) that this is indicative of an inappropriate power balance in the heya - with Hakuho's influence and authority superseding his oyakata's. Well, I don't think Hakuho is the shouty, fiery type (that would be Asashoryu (Laughing...)). Especially don't think he would have done that to Miyagino, whom he regards as one of his fathers. I think he just put his point across in a respectful but in that icy manner of his that might have alarmed Miyagino, who considers Hakuho his son. Or, as @Seiyashi has put it, it could be a sympathetic ploy to divert attention from Kakuryu (which is a nicer alternative to it being a genuine mistake). 

Hakuho allegedly has advised his oyakata (who frankly doesn't have stellar coaching abilities) on the acquisition of former Magaki stable (former stable of Terunofuji) but this did not happen and there was a disagreement between them for awhile. Yes, I don't think they have a typical deshi-oyakata relationship, but I think Miyagino is still the superior one here, precisely at this critical time. We've heard of absentee oyakata and heyas becoming Lord of the Flies, but the rumours that Hakuho is the one running the heya is pretty outlandish. Miyagino is one of Hakuho's shields against the YDC's recommendations. If Miyagino so chose, Hakuho would have to leave tomorrow, regardless of whether he is Hakuho, and I think the Yokozuna is very aware of that fact. 

And no, I don't think his shisho has any say on whether he gets ichidai toshiyori. The deshi an oyakata brings up is not necessarily an indication of his skill, powers or the amount of respect he gets from the sumo world. It's up to the NSK top brass, I think. 

Edited by pricklypomegranate

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39 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:

I think it's more like Miyagino-oyakata fell short of the public and Kyokai's expectation of an oyakata-deshi relationship. Compared to his deshi, regardless of whether he is the greatest of all time, Miyagino oyakata is supposed to be infallible and omniscient. His apology for his poor choice of wording is an implied acknowledgement of having wronged Hakuho. Some Japanese observers have noted (an observa tion jokingly implied by @Kintamayama) that this is indicative of an inappropriate power balance in the heya

I wasn't joking. I don't believe Hakuhou will give  Miyagino the time of day when it comes to crucial matters like a kyujo, or when his Oyakata volunteers to retire him even if no one asked him to do so. I'm pretty sure Hakuhou went ballistic, regardless of his "quiet demeanor". It's not uncommon for a Yokozuna  to essentially disregard his Oyakata's wishes. Asashouryuu we know, Akebono we guess, past guys like Wajima and Futahaguro, just as examples, had no respect for their Oyakata, who "never reached their ranks". What speaks volumes for me is when Miyagino retracted his words, he used the "I have decided to make him sit out the basho" instead of the usual "we discussed it and decided together".  It's those nuances that lead me to believe Hakuhou was very angry indeed. Mind you, it's not that he has no respect for Miyagino, it's just that when it comes to the important things like kyujo or when to retire, it will be Hakuhou's decision and Hakuhou's only, for he is the YOKOZUNA.. Unless he gets into a brawl with a Roppongi thug, which is another matter entirely.

Edited by Kintamayama
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"The fans will miss out on a Yokozuna dohyo-iri, but if the Yokozunae's physical condition is lacking, there is nothing we can do about it. I think they've reached the age where recovery is not quick," said Shibatayama Oyakata.

More Miyagino: "For January, he should fulfill his responsibilities as a Yokozuna  and devote  himself to healing and training."

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23 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I wasn't joking. I don't believe Hakuhou will give  Miyagino the time of day when it comes to crucial matters like a kyujo, or when his Oyakata volunteers to retire him even if no one asked him to do so. I'm pretty sure Hakuhou went ballistic, regardless of his "quiet demeanor". It's not uncommon for a Yokozuna  to essentially disregard his Oyakata's wishes. Asashouryuu we know, Akebono we guess, past guys like Wajima and Futahaguro, just as examples, had no respect for their Oyakata, who "never reached their ranks". What speaks volumes for me is when Miyagino retracted his words, he used the "I have decided to make him sit out the basho" instead of the usual "we discussed it and decided together".  It's those nuances that lead me to believe Hakuhou was very angry indeed. Mind you, it's not that he has no respect for Miyagino, it's just that when it comes to the important things like kyujo or when to retire, it will be Hakuhou's decision and Hakuhou's only, for he is the YOKOZUNA.. Unless he gets into a brawl with a Roppongi thug, which is another matter entirely.

I guess the bigger question is, this can't be Miyagino's first day managing Hakuho, so why the slip up in the first place? I find it a bit hard to believe that Miyagino was caught off guard and loose with his language, when he'd previously told the press that the kyujo would depend on test results (and therefore knew that he'd have to make a statement on the same).

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Another alternative is Miyagino could be trying to get ahead of the YDC. If Miyagino said this was a do-or-die basho, thinking Hakuho would appear and "do," it would make sense for him to simply try to walk that back whether or not he had spoken out of turn the first time. If the YDC thought this were Hakuho's do-or-die moment they would be harsher on him than if it weren't. I personally don't think Hakuho is scared much of oyakata, but I think he really doesn't seem to worry about the YDC at all.

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3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

I wasn't joking. I don't believe Hakuhou will give  Miyagino the time of day when it comes to crucial matters like a kyujo, or when his Oyakata volunteers to retire him even if no one asked him to do so. I'm pretty sure Hakuhou went ballistic, regardless of his "quiet demeanor". It's not uncommon for a Yokozuna  to essentially disregard his Oyakata's wishes. Asashouryuu we know, Akebono we guess, past guys like Wajima and Futahaguro, just as examples, had no respect for their Oyakata, who "never reached their ranks". What speaks volumes for me is when Miyagino retracted his words, he used the "I have decided to make him sit out the basho" instead of the usual "we discussed it and decided together".  It's those nuances that lead me to believe Hakuhou was very angry indeed. Mind you, it's not that he has no respect for Miyagino, it's just that when it comes to the important things like kyujo or when to retire, it will be Hakuhou's decision and Hakuhou's only, for he is the YOKOZUNA.. Unless he gets into a brawl with a Roppongi thug, which is another matter entirely.

I've ran out of reactions but thumbs up to this!

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7 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

I wasn't joking. I don't believe Hakuhou will give  Miyagino the time of day when it comes to crucial matters like a kyujo, or when his Oyakata volunteers to retire him even if no one asked him to do so. I'm pretty sure Hakuhou went ballistic, regardless of his "quiet demeanor". It's not uncommon for a Yokozuna  to essentially disregard his Oyakata's wishes. Asashouryuu we know, Akebono we guess, past guys like Wajima and Futahaguro, just as examples, had no respect for their Oyakata, who "never reached their ranks". What speaks volumes for me is when Miyagino retracted his words, he used the "I have decided to make him sit out the basho" instead of the usual "we discussed it and decided together".  It's those nuances that lead me to believe Hakuhou was very angry indeed. Mind you, it's not that he has no respect for Miyagino, it's just that when it comes to the important things like kyujo or when to retire, it will be Hakuhou's decision and Hakuhou's only, for he is the YOKOZUNA.. Unless he gets into a brawl with a Roppongi thug, which is another matter entirely.

Sorry I misunderstood the post. I can only hope that it doesn't put a permanent dent on their relationship. I am quite dismayed that such power dynamics are not necessarily atypical. If and when Hakuho becomes stablemaster, his achievements would put him in a very different, more superior position I think.

Edited by pricklypomegranate

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