Speculations about the new Takasago (split from Preparations of the Y/O- Aki 2020)

[Jakusotsu 3,581]

16 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

His Oyakata Takasago will turn 65 in December and will retire from the Kyokai.

Which made me search for any information regarding his successor, but I came up blank.

Edited August 26, 2020 by Jakusotsu

[Kintamayama 32,768]

2 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Which made me search for any information regarding his successor, but I came up blank.

Wakamatsu (ex-Asanowaka) perhaps? He seems to be a good candidate, no?

[Jakusotsu 3,581]

19 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Wakamatsu (ex-Asanowaka) perhaps? He seems to be a good candidate, no?

Found something:

 

[Tigerboy1966 350]

11 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Wakamatsu (ex-Asanowaka) perhaps? He seems to be a good candidate, no?

I would have thought that Wakamatsu would be the obvious choice. He is senior to Nishikijima in both age and elder status. From a technical and stylistic perspective, I would of course rather see the former Asasekiryu get the job.

[Houmanumi 201]

3 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I would have thought that Wakamatsu would be the obvious choice. He is senior to Nishikijima in both age and elder status. From a technical and stylistic perspective, I would of course rather see the former Asasekiryu get the job.

This interests me, and I expect the answer is obvious; but is it now 'meaningless' the fact that Nishikijima is a former Sekiwake while Wakamatsu never made sanyaku?

Also who makes this call? Is it Takasago himself?

[WAKATAKE 1,781]

I liked watching Asanowaka when he was active. I would expect that he will probably take over the heya because he's been an oyakata longer, senior to Nishikijima as mentioned.

The final call will be down to the senior Takasago himself. For those who remember, the first Azumazeki aka Takamiyama chose Ushiomaru to take over the heya over Takamisakari, even though Robocop had reached sanyaku and was a lot more popular with the fans. But that would have meant a premature retirement for Takamisakari.

In this case, I think Wakamatsu will become the next Takasago, he has more experience as an oyakata and has a longer history with the current stable master. 

[Jakusotsu 3,581]

2 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

I liked watching Asanowaka when he was active.

Me too, and he was a favourite of my late father, calling him "speed runner". But there's no denying he was a goofball, more famous for his pre-bout antics than his actual sumo abilities, which boiled down to "avoid getting caught". Only six(!) of his 547 career wins by yorikiri!

[Kintamayama 32,768]

Wakamatsu has the "Oyakata feel", something I can't explain, just that feel. ex- Asasekiryuu? Less. I'm all in on Asanowaka.

[Swami 156]

Quote

 

How about amalgamating with Nishikido, Asashio's one-time junior at Takasago?

 

Swami

[Akinomaki 28,076]

Maybe the choice of the next shisho is causing Ichinoya to end his tenure as heya manager end of the year, when he turns 60

On 09/08/2020 at 15:22, Akinomaki said:

Ex-Ichinoya,Takasago-beya manager till the end of this year (when he reaches kanreki), did a lecture today with JACSHA composer Nomura at the Sumidagawa Sumi-yume art project symposium on Tanabata - https://sumiyume.jp/event/tanabata2020/, part of events to celebrate the birth of Hokusai 260 years ago

Ichinoya talks about the first Takasago Uragoro (Takamiyama), who created the present Takasago-beya and reorganized the sumo organization close to the present form.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_YnRkz9cP4&t=4m50s

Ichinoya will go freelance next year.

Ichinoya told that in the question time, answering about his sumo career https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_YnRkz9cP4&t=62m

[Tamanaogijima 350]

On 27/08/2020 at 11:19, Swami said:

How about amalgamating with Nishikido, Asashio's one-time junior at Takasago?

Would not bet on him.

See, what you call "Takasago" today is actually "Wakamatsu" while rather the entity you are calling "Nishikido" is the continuation of "Takasago".

When the former Takasago[6] (Fujinishiki) retired in 2002, Nishikido (Mitoizumi) would have already been a clear choice. Being the most senior rikishi after Konishiki's departure and also acting oyakata during Fujinishiki's illness - and then doing a good job - he would have been the natural choice. Instead the ichimon picked Wakamatsu[11] (Asashio) to become the new Takasago and merge the two heya. The rationale for that was flimsy, and some even say it was only a matter of money, lots of money. The new giga-heya was then located in Asashio's building while Mitoizumi branched out some months later and moved into the old Fujinishiki facilities.

With all the scandals surrounding Asashio during the last decade, it would be a nice but late retribution if the ichimon decided on Mitoizumi now, but I really cannot imagine it.

[ryafuji 563]

Yeah, Takasago beya is effectively Wakamatsu beya under a different name so I would expect ex-Asanowaka, as the current Takasago's guy, to take over. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by ryafuji

[WAKATAKE 1,781]

Unfortunately I am not really a fan of Nishikido right now with the whole debacle over Homarenishiki, so I would rather that Asanowaka be the one to take over the heya.

[themistyseas 15]

On 02/09/2020 at 12:11, WAKATAKE said:

Unfortunately I am not really a fan of Nishikido right now with the whole debacle over Homarenishiki, so I would rather that Asanowaka be the one to take over the heya.

One wouldn't say his oversight of Gokushindo's development has been stellar either. Not that most stables are bereft of drama but I don't know he in particular is who you'd want inheriting a Yokozuna candidate.

Nevermind that those of us with a particular interest in the success of rikishi with western roots will have been sad to see the Ryuga intai.

[John Gunning 3,125]

Chiganoura Beya since its founding has occupied the building that used to be Takasago Beya.
 

Nishikido Beya (if I remember correctly) started out in a newly constructed building called ‘Mitoizumi’ - with the floors Above the heya being apartments.

[Akinomaki 28,076]

Takasago was interviewed (remote) one month before his retirement - and didn't mention if Wakamatsu or Nishikijima will be his successor: "will be decided from now on". Also to the question "Would you raise (train) Asashoryu again?" (knowing what he would become and how he'd end): "No comment" (nou komento) - "he's paying for his mistakes, tell him that." http://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/sports/sumou/2370474/

[Yubinhaad 9,023]

Other articles say he intends to switch myoseki with his successor and remain in the Kyokai for the extra five years as a consultant. As for the successor, I'd be astonished if it's not ex-Asanowaka.

[John Gunning 3,125]

11 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Takasago was interviewed (remote) one month before his retirement - and didn't mention if Wakamatsu or Nishikijima will be his successor: "will be decided from now on". Also to the question "Would you raise (train) Asashoryu again?" (knowing what he would become and how he'd end): "No comment" (nou komento) - "he's paying for his mistakes, tell him that." http://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/sports/sumou/2370474/

Asashoryu's reaction.

笑 = LOL

 

[Akinomaki 28,076]

14 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:

Other articles say he intends to switch myoseki with his successor and remain in the Kyokai for the extra five years as a consultant. As for the successor, I'd be astonished if it's not ex-Asanowaka.

Nikkan-gendai quotes an oyakata who confirms that it is certainly Wakamatsu. The decisive reason: to keep the Kindai lineage and connection. The shisho and Asanoyama are from that university, and also ex-Asanowaka. http://www.nikkan-gendai.com/articles/view/sports/280884

[themistyseas 15]

Curious about what people here think about the news of him staying on for five more years as a consultant? I actually wonder whether this is an area the NSK can or should reform.

It seems there is an enormous upcoming cluster of retirement age rikishi who might need/want kabu, a few loan situations that might be about to blow up, and it seems a bit horrible to get 24-36 years down the line and for someone who's 33-34 to miss out on the opportunity of 30+ years of work as a result of a 68 or 69 year old carrying on past the typical retirement age.

That said, I know it's completely his right, and that everyone knows the rules of engagement. And also that lately, there is the precedent of a few consultants jumping off when a retiring rikishi was in need.

[Seiyashi 466]

11 minutes ago, themistyseas said:

Curious about what people here think about the news of him staying on for five more years as a consultant? I actually wonder whether this is an area the NSK can or should reform.

It seems there is an enormous upcoming cluster of retirement age rikishi who might need/want kabu, a few loan situations that might be about to blow up, and it seems a bit horrible to get 24-36 years down the line and for someone who's 33-34 to miss out on the opportunity of 30+ years of work as a result of a 68 or 69 year old carrying on past the typical retirement age.

That said, I know it's completely his right, and that everyone knows the rules of engagement. And also that lately, there is the precedent of a few consultants jumping off when a retiring rikishi was in need.

Not just the consultants - there have been plenty of cases of not-so-big-name rikishi leaving the NSK early because someone else needed the kabu they were loaning. And, well, we might go all bleeding heart for those sekitori, but surely those who aren't even eligible to stay as an oyakata (i.e. never-made-its) are in an even worse spot.

The biggest name in kabu trouble right now is probably Shohozan, if he can't make it back up to makuuchi and continues sliding. That said, Tokiwayama-oyakata in his own stable is a consultant who needs to retire by April next year, so it's most probable that if Shohozan retires and stays in sumo, we're going to see him as Tokiwayama-oyakata next year.

Ikioi and Kotoshogiku both hold their own stock, although Ikioi may have to boot the current loaner (ex-Bushuyama). There's also a free Furiwake stock for any retiree from Takasago-ichimon, but other than the aforementioned three rikishi, I don't think anyone else in makuuchi (or recently demoted to juryo) is an immediate retirement concern. Kakuryu is a different kettle of fish entirely since his is a citizenship problem rather than a kabu problem. And nevermind Hakuho, since he also has five years to sort things out even if he's denied ichidai-toshiyori and can't be Hakuho-oyakata forever; he'll probably inherit Miyagino in that case.

Other than that, the cycle will sort itself out. The rule allowing 5-year consultancies is sort of balanced out by rikishi having access to modern sport science to extend careers a bit longer than they used to, which is in turn balanced out by the fact that more and more prospective rikishi are going for a higher education than before. Think of it as the whole of sumo being gradually shifted by five years. It's placing a bigger burden on the current old guard which is enduring the delay, but it shouldn't be an issue in five more years.

[themistyseas 15]

5 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Ikioi and Kotoshogiku both hold their own stock, although Ikioi may have to boot the current loaner (ex-Bushuyama). There's also a free Furiwake stock for any retiree from Takasago-ichimon, but other than the aforementioned three rikishi, I don't think anyone else in makuuchi (or recently demoted to juryo) is an immediate retirement concern. Kakuryu is a different kettle of fish entirely since his is a citizenship problem rather than a kabu problem. And nevermind Hakuho, since he also has five years to sort things out even if he's denied ichidai-toshiyori and can't be Hakuho-oyakata forever; he'll probably inherit Miyagino in that case.

Other than that, the cycle will sort itself out. The rule allowing 5-year consultancies is sort of balanced out by rikishi having access to modern sport science to extend careers a bit longer than they used to, which is in turn balanced out by the fact that more and more prospective rikishi are going for a higher education than before. Think of it as the whole of sumo being gradually shifted by five years. It's placing a bigger burden on the current old guard which is enduring the delay, but it shouldn't be an issue in five more years.

It seems recently there have been more loans across ichimon, so I could see that Furiwake being used elsewhere in the event someone gets knocked off their loaned name. I guess I'm worried because you have - in addition to those loanees - a quartet of ~34 year olds in makuuchi with no kabu (Myogiryu, Takarafuji, Tokushoryu, Kaisei - who has citizenship) who might not be able to go until 37-38. That's not to say they want to continue as oyakata. Sadanoumi also turns 34 in the spring, and then down in Juryo you have 35 year old Akiseyama and almost 34 year old Fujiazuma who both qualify.

So bringing it back to the main topic, when I look at the ability of Takasago to stay on as consultant in that light, it seems harsh that there may or may not be a slot for many/all of these guys to continue on if they so choose. Is there another or a better way to keep these stable masters in the game?

[Seiyashi 466]

I wouldn't be worried about Takarafuji and Kaisei as Isegahama-ichimon rikishi. A couple months back, there was occasion for some discussion on Hakuho and Enho's eventual kabu allocations, and I believe I dug up all the Isegahama kabu - link to post below.

If Takarafuji and Kaisei can hold on for a year or two more, and I think they can, since they're fairly comfortably ranked in makuuchi at the moment, there's two kabu for the taking just round the corner, and in the same heya too. Kiriyama in Isegahama-beya and Oshima (ex-Kaiki/Tomozuna-oyakata, swapped names with ex-Kyokutenho) in Tomozuna-beya must retire in 2021 and 2022 respectively.

As for the other five - all from Dewanoumi, it may be a race to retirement, but all of them still appear to be again fairly comfortably ranked in makuuchi. Dewanoumi-ichimon is the one with the crunch, since only two kabu - Matsuchiyama and Dekiyama - are available next year. It might be that we will see some of those cross-ichimon loans since Nishonoseki-ichimon appears to have quite a few kabu freeing up soon, unless there's also a crunch list of Nishonoseki rikishi waiting for a kabu soon.

Edited November 5, 2020 by Seiyashi

[Yubinhaad 9,023]

On 05/11/2020 at 11:55, Akinomaki said:

On 04/11/2020 at 21:03, Yubinhaad said:

Other articles say he intends to switch myoseki with his successor and remain in the Kyokai for the extra five years as a consultant. As for the successor, I'd be astonished if it's not ex-Asanowaka.

Nikkan-gendai quotes an oyakata who confirms that it is certainly Wakamatsu. The decisive reason: to keep the Kindai lineage and connection. The shisho and Asanoyama are from that university, and also ex-Asanowaka. http://www.nikkan-gendai.com/articles/view/sports/280884

Sponichi says: Nishikijima (ex-Asasekiryu) will take over, his personality and career achievements appear to have overturned the collegiate connection of Wakamatsu. Not final yet, but expected to be confirmed after the basho.

[Yubinhaad 9,023]

Nikkan's Sasaki mentions that Wakamatsu is to take over Azumazeki-beya, although the linked article (regarding Takasago-beya) makes no mention of that. Maybe ex-Takamisakari found running a heya not to his liking?

Anyway, back to the Takasago future - the required documents for exchange of myoseki were filed with the Kyokai on the 17th and await the rijikai's rubber stamp after the basho. Current Takasago will then become Nishikijima and stay on under that name for his extra five years as a consultant after he turns 65 next month.

https://twitter.com/Ichiro_SUMO/status/1329716542385266688