Kintamayama

September (Aki) Basho- offical thread (yay..)

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2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Of course, on paper they would welcome any contribution to the promotion and preservation of oozumo (and after all, former Yokokzunas have the most knowledge to pass down), but I can't help but believe there are some feelings of unease...  And that may not be blatantly racist, but rather a concern that non-Japanese may not be as willing to defend the honoured hinkaku value.  And to put it bluntly, a fear that a non-Japanese (Hakuho, cough, cough) may end up as Rijicho, essentially in control of Japan's so-called national sport...

Kotooshu, though a former Ozeki, not Yokozuna, seems to have made a smooth transition to foreign ex-rikishi oyakata. 

Edited by Kaninoyama

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14 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

The last time I looked deeply into this is that as long as you can prove a past and future income of $100k+ USD per year it is relatively easy to fast track citizenship in Japan. I think this part Kakuryu is not too worried about.

Indeed, we have many people in our company that enter Japan on a Japanese passport and the US on an American passport...

You do need to "renounce" your US citizenship, in the sense of telling Japan you are renouncing it, to get Japanese citizenship, but you can simply not bother to actually go through the bureaucracy of renouncing it as far as the US is concerned.  For your average worker, no one in Japan is going to find out that they are still using their American passport.  But for someone that's high profile, it's a rather different risk.  I would think, though I don't have any experience in the matter, that the fact that you had to renounce all other citizenships to acquire Japanese citizenship would mean that if they discovered you hadn't actually renounced one of them, they would revoke your Japanese citizenship, seeing as you acquired it fraudulently, and you would obviously have another citizenship to fall back on.

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Is it possible that he has already obtained Japanese citizenship and it just slipped under radar? It kind feels like he's more private than Hakuho.

Edited by Morning

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4 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The YDC was not pleased with the 2 yokozuna, a few wanted to have some warning issued, but they will decide on that after next basho, a 2/3 majority is needed for one. They have encouragement, warning and intai recommendation at their disposal.

They were pleased with Shodai of course: "At last his great talent has come to bloom."

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202009280000667.html

A bit more:

The YDC convened today after an eight-month hiatus and had harsh words for the kyujo Yokozunae, especially for Kakuryuu who has been kyujo in five of the last six bashos. Some members demanded issuing a formal warning to him but they stopped short of that and harsh words were heard. His Oyakata Michinoku has publicly stated that the next basho will be a do or die basho for him.  Hakuhou has missed 11 of the last 18 basho -five of them from day one, but of the 7 bashos he did enter, he had 5 yushos.  "We will be watching them closely. We want them to live up to their responsibilities  as the top rikishi. Looking back at the last couple of years there have been intermittent kyujos. Some severe opinions were voiced., " said Sano the chairman. "We want them to uphold the dignity and status of the rank. Even if they go kyujo , they need to safeguard their status as Yokozunae - that is the essence of sumo -it's a special status. It's not only a privilege, but it comes with a responsibility as well. They should remember that they are above all other rikishi and they need to know that they should restrain themselves accordingly" added Mr. Sano. They have let it be known that after the next basho in which the Yokozunae will enter they may issue warnings against one or both of them if they don't see any changes. As for Shoudai, they were full of compliments on the "flower that has finally bloomed' etc. and expressed satisfaction that we will have three Ozekis next basho and hoped they will not stop there and aim upwards. "We don't have many candidates for Yokozuna, so we want them not only to get stronger, but to prepare themselves mentally as well, " summed the Chairman.

Edited by Kintamayama
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Re: kakuryu and renoucing his mongolian passport being a limit.  

In general the two things will happen simultaneously de jure--the renounciation of the old citizenship and the attainment of the new one.  It's probably illegal for the Mongolians to let their citizens become stateless.  Ditto, if I understand the Japanese naturalisation process correctly, the paperwork to become japanese  basically says 'I hereby renounce all other citizenships' in the legalese.  

As far as foreign governments are concerned, how much legal effect that has varies.  Historically, it was literally impossible to voluntarily dispose of Canadian citizenship by any means, so there are plenty of Canada/Japan dual citizens even if Japan doesn't want to believe that it's so.  I believe Mongolia also believes in single-citizenship-only, so the very act of becoming japanese de jure removes the Mongolian citizenship.   

Of course, there's probably some nuance that I'm missing here, but that's my understanding of the process for normal people.

 

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7 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Might be a bit late for that....

Well I meant having to walk around with a cane for the rest of your life kind of bad injury... 

6 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Kakuryuu, it's time. He hasn't been the same since his Oyakata passed away, and five kyjujos in the last six bashos.. Time to leave with dignity. As for Hakuhou, he can stay till he's 65 , if you ask me. A healthy Hakuhou can still win the yusho. Kakuryuu? I doubt he will ever be 100% healthy again. Hakuhou needs to be 70% healthy.

6 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Of course, on paper they would welcome any contribution to the promotion and preservation of oozumo (and after all, former Yokokzunas have the most knowledge to pass down), but I can't help but believe there are some feelings of unease...  And that may not be blatantly racist, but rather a concern that non-Japanese may not be as willing to defend the honoured hinkaku value.  And to put it bluntly, a fear that a non-Japanese (Hakuho, cough, cough) may end up as Rijicho, essentially in control of Japan's so-called national sport...

Yup, I'm going to stop short of calling it racism because (1) I concede I don't fully understand the Japanese psyche and (2) that's a whole can of worms I don't want to open... I can understand the case of Kakuryu, but not Hakuho. In my (extremely insignificant) opinion, YDC just doesn't have a strong case because: (1) Kisenosato and Takanohana precedents, (2) no possible replacements until at least January 2020, which we all know isn't going to happen. While the banzuke doesn't need a yokozuna, from what I understand it's nicer to have one. Thus, I can't help but feel it's a little odd to demand yokozuna aesthetics, yet forgo banzuke aesthetics, especially for a yokozuna who is still in the yusho discussion everytime he enters. Maybe they prioritise different things. But you know, as much as we do not like the YDC, they did vote not to give the recommendation, so it's not a completely flawed institution and I think we are just hearing the voices of the extreme minority. 

From what I read before (and I don't know if I can find the source), the reason why Kakuryu's takes so long is because he has to change the citizenship of his entire family. His wife is Mongolian and thus that makes his three kids all Mongolian and having to be converted. In Hakuho's case, his wife is Japanese and I think his kids were Japanese from the start, so he only had to change citizenship for himself. Also, yes, political capital and what have you...

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3 hours ago, Gurowake said:

You do need to "renounce" your US citizenship, in the sense of telling Japan you are renouncing it, to get Japanese citizenship, but you can simply not bother to actually go through the bureaucracy of renouncing it as far as the US is concerned.  For your average worker, no one in Japan is going to find out that they are still using their American passport.  But for someone that's high profile, it's a rather different risk.  I would think, though I don't have any experience in the matter, that the fact that you had to renounce all other citizenships to acquire Japanese citizenship would mean that if they discovered you hadn't actually renounced one of them, they would revoke your Japanese citizenship, seeing as you acquired it fraudulently, and you would obviously have another citizenship to fall back on.

Yeah, none of the people I know are famous, and I think pick up dual citizenship when they are born in the US but added to their Japanese family register - and then it just slips under the radar at 20 years old.

Though in one case it did end up with a bunch of back US taxes for one guy.

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18 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:

From what I read before (and I don't know if I can find the source), the reason why Kakuryu's takes so long is because he has to change the citizenship of his entire family. His wife is Mongolian and thus that makes his three kids all Mongolian and having to be converted. In Hakuho's case, his wife is Japanese and I think his kids were Japanese from the start, so he only had to change citizenship for himself. Also, yes, political capital and what have you...

Yeah, this makes sense now that you mention it. Hakuho's mum said he was practically Japanese already - his wife was Japanese, his kids went to a Japanese school, etcetc. Most countries normally make it easier for the spouse of an existing citizen to take citizenship, whereas naturalising a whole family is a bit more difficult.

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1 hour ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Yup, I'm going to stop short of calling it racism because (1) I concede I don't fully understand the Japanese psyche etc.

I don't think racism figures in the equation here. The way I see it, the YDC is doing its usual "Hold me back before I punch this guy in the face" routine whereby they  just want to make the Yokozunae aware of their presence and that they are watching. Usually when a Yokozuna retires it's not because the YDC demanded it (unless there's a gigantic scandal). They come to understand by themselves that they're not cutting it anymore, aided of course, by the constant nagging of said YDC, but not under their direct orders.

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50 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I don't think racism figures in the equation here. The way I see it, the YDC is doing its usual "Hold me back before I punch this guy in the face" routine whereby they  just want to make the Yokozunae aware of their presence and that they are watching. Usually when a Yokozuna retires it's not because the YDC demanded it (unless there's a gigantic scandal). They come to understand by themselves that they're not cutting it anymore, aided of course, by the constant nagging of said YDC, but not under their direct orders.

I agree that calling any organisation racist is a big claim and I should check my personal biases and ignorance before doing so. That's why I stopped short there. I understand the YDC have their job to do, but I just cannot appreciate the unease, antagonism and logic they demonstrate to yokozunas (most of them, except for dismissal). But as I've said, they are not a completely faulty institution and are still relatively balanced. I am very glad to hear that at least the Yokozunas still hold the power over whether they should stay or go (short of scandal). 

P.S. Congratulations on reaching 31,000 points! Prime numbers are nice numbers. (Holidayfeeling...)

Edited by pricklypomegranate

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9 minutes ago, sahaven111 said:

When are the intai announced?

Usually some time before the next basho.

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8 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

Kotooshu, though a former Ozeki, not Yokozuna, seems to have made a smooth transition to foreign ex-rikishi oyakata. 

There's also Takamiyama, Musashimaru, and quite recently Sokokurai. I don't think it's an issue. 

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4 minutes ago, Houmanumi said:

There's also Takamiyama, Musashimaru, and quite recently Sokokurai. I don't think it's an issue. 

And since he's the picture perfect example of smooth, it's no wonder you overlooked Kyokutenho.

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I remember people calling for him to retire 2 years ago, after which he had some respectable results, getting a kinboshi and back up to M1. His decline is more pronounced now but I think he just enjoys being a rikishi....you go for it Geek, I will be happy to have you around still!

Edited by Katooshu
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The day before the promotion is traditionally the day to talk about the phrase of acceptance. Shodai told the inquiring reporters on the phone today that he has decided on the one he'll use, he talked it over with koenkai members and the shisho: "A 4 kanji phrase, words that apply to my way of life from now on." https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202009290000367.html

Maybe something to be cited from now on to indicate a positive Shodai

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45 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

The Geek will be back in November!!!

A few observations about Kotoshogiku in this tournament:

1) He decided to enter the ring without his usual knee taping etc. (Was he trying to cheat fate?  It certainly backfired when he got injured on day 2 against Meisei, albeit not an injury directly involving his knee)

2) He wisely did away with the experimental bum-up tachiai position. (What was he thinking to begin with?)

3) While various sekitori had dropped weight, Kotoshogiku actually put on weight going from 178kg to 186kg. (Not quite Covid-"19"kgs, but...)

4) Kotoshogiku decided to return to the ring after going kyujo, and despite beating Enho (whom he'd never beaten before) on day 7, he ended the tournament with 8 straight losses. (Was it worth it?  Definitely not worth the effort compared with Ishiura who broke even with 4-4 after his return from kyujo, and with Kiribayama who came back and won three straight.)

5) He was M11w.  Will his 2-10-3 (i.e., 2-13) record send his down to Juryo?  It might be close.

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11 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:
1 hour ago, WAKATAKE said:

The Geek will be back in November!!!

A few observations about Kotoshogiku in this tournament:

1) He decided to enter the ring without his usual knee taping etc. (Was he trying to cheat fate?  It certainly backfired when he got injured on day 2 against Meisei, albeit not an injury directly involving his knee)

2) He wisely did away with the experimental bum-up tachiai position. (What was he thinking to begin with?)

3) While various sekitori had dropped weight, Kotoshogiku actually put on weight going from 178kg to 186kg. (Not quite Covid-"19"kgs, but...)

4) Kotoshogiku decided to return to the ring after going kyujo, and despite beating Enho (whom he'd never beaten before) on day 7, he ended the tournament with 8 straight losses. (Was it worth it?  Definitely not worth the effort compared with Ishiura who broke even with 4-4 after his return from kyujo, and with Kiribayama who came back and won three straight.)

5) He was M11w.  Will his 2-10-3 (i.e., 2-13) record send his down to Juryo?  It might be close.

1/2) It feels like he's trying to mix things up and see and if helps. I think his taping will come back, but so may the tachiai position.

4/5) Even if he goes down to Juryo, maybe he feels it's worth it to try and fight back once.

Are there any records he's within a year of hitting on average results? Last time round he was trying to close up on Taiho's record of top division wins (about 30 off) and Terao's top division bouts (about 50) off. But those move him up to 5th at most. Beyond Taiho, it's another 60 to Kitanoumi's 804 wins, and beyond Terao, it's another 150 bouts to Kyokutenho!

2 more basho will tie him with Terao for top division basho fought as well. Beyond that, it's 4 more to Aminishiki and Takamiyama. And it's another 10 more to Kyokutenho.

I highly doubt he will last long enough to reach those records. 

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33 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Are there any records he's within a year of hitting on average results? Last time round he was trying to close up on Taiho's record of top division wins (about 30 off) and Terao's top division bouts (about 50) off. But those move him up to 5th at most. Beyond Taiho, it's another 60 to Kitanoumi's 804 wins, and beyond Terao, it's another 150 bouts to Kyokutenho!

2 more basho will tie him with Terao for top division basho fought as well. Beyond that, it's 4 more to Aminishiki and Takamiyama. And it's another 10 more to Kyokutenho.

I highly doubt he will last long enough to reach those records. 

You are correct - 5 seems to be the magic number for Kotoshogiku and these are the numbers will need to achieve the following records: 

31 wins to beat Taiho and take no. 5 spot for most top division wins. 

58 bouts to beat Terao and take no. 5 spot for most top division bouts. 

3 basho ranked in makuuchi to beat Terao and take no.5 spot for most tournaments ranked at top division. He currently matches Akinoshima, who has a mind-boggling 19 sansho and 16 kinboshi, the highest ever. 

If its overall sekitori experience, then I don't think he breaks any records. All of his major records are top division only, so out of the three I think the last is the most likely. Despite his poor performance I sincerely hope that with Juryo performances he has some banzuke luck and be in M17 or something. 

Also, had no idea that Aminishiki, Kyokutenho and Takamiyama lasted so long. I know they lasted long, but not that long. Kyokutenho, please tell me your secrets. 

Edited by pricklypomegranate

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I'm a little disappointed by Kotoshogiku's decision to carry on. I know notions like it being beneath the dignity of a former ozeki to allow himself to fall to juryo disappeared long ago, and the marvellous example set by Goeido is a rarity these days, but Ozumo is also showbiz and I want to see a show. Merely appearing on the dohyo, unable to fight, is not putting on a show for the fans. This doesn't just apply to the Geek.

I like the notion of the YDC being official nags to the yokozuna and NSK. They also make nice noises about other rikishi from time to time, like Shodai this time. Maybe they ought to extend their remit and starting nagging the knackered old has-beens elsewhere on the banzuke about intai.

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22 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

I'm a little disappointed by Kotoshogiku's decision to carry on. I know notions like it being beneath the dignity of a former ozeki to allow himself to fall to juryo disappeared long ago, and the marvellous example set by Goeido is a rarity these days, but Ozumo is also showbiz and I want to see a show. Merely appearing on the dohyo, unable to fight, is not putting on a show for the fans. This doesn't just apply to the Geek.

I like the notion of the YDC being official nags to the yokozuna and NSK. They also make nice noises about other rikishi from time to time, like Shodai this time. Maybe they ought to extend their remit and starting nagging the knackered old has-beens elsewhere on the banzuke about intai.

You probably have Aminishiki to thank for that, since he's the one who established the "don't retire till too physically broken" mentality. Even Kyokutenho knew when to call it quits after double-digit losses.

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1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

I'm a little disappointed by Kotoshogiku's decision to carry on. I know notions like it being beneath the dignity of a former ozeki to allow himself to fall to juryo disappeared long ago, and the marvellous example set by Goeido is a rarity these days, but Ozumo is also showbiz and I want to see a show. Merely appearing on the dohyo, unable to fight, is not putting on a show for the fans. This doesn't just apply to the Geek.

I like the notion of the YDC being official nags to the yokozuna and NSK. They also make nice noises about other rikishi from time to time, like Shodai this time. Maybe they ought to extend their remit and starting nagging the knackered old has-beens elsewhere on the banzuke about intai.

What the NSK could do there is make a policy that states it's just fine to fight on as long as you are able to mount the dohyo, but what sort of retirement ceremony you may have is dictated by what rank you retire at, not the one you attained at your peak. Yokozuna would always be good. So would a good many ozeki. There are probably a dozen good reasons why this is not done, but it would be a way to raise the stakes when considering under what terms you'd like to go out. Imagine if that were already the case - the Terunofuji miracle would be even more miraculous.

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13 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

What the NSK could do there is make a policy that states it's just fine to fight on as long as you are able to mount the dohyo, but what sort of retirement ceremony you may have is dictated by what rank you retire at, not the one you attained at your peak. Yokozuna would always be good. So would a good many ozeki. There are probably a dozen good reasons why this is not done, but it would be a way to raise the stakes when considering under what terms you'd like to go out. Imagine if that were already the case - the Terunofuji miracle would be even more miraculous.

No chance they'd turn down the yen that a large, high-profile retirement like Kotoshogiku would bring in, regardless of his rank at retirement.

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Ah, the Geek. So much for the tale of the tape. But the tape don't lie, and it speaks volumes, although wins and losses are the only indicator that matters, ultimately. Regardless, I'll still cheer for the ex-Ozeki even if he ends up in Juryo. Gotta admire his heart, although its dismaying to ponder how it likely comes at the cost of his body.

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