Kintamayama

September (Aki) Basho- offical thread (yay..)

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10 hours ago, Karasukurai said:

Delighted for Shodai; I'm not sure the reports of him being the 'negative rikishi' are entirely true but, if he has changed his mental approach then it's serving him well.

 

They are.  Every article relating to him mentions it, using the English word "negative", in case someone doesn't get it. 

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11 hours ago, lackmaker said:

Looks like we are going to need a new "next ozeki". And then two guys who will get there before him.

The next ozeki? Takanosho, obviously. (Bouncingofexcitement...)

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13 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Time to open Pandora's box. Is Enho the latter-day Mainoumi or is he not or is he something different? Mainoumi made it to Komusubi (though did not occupy the rank successfully). 

In my opinion, although Enho is a very talented rikishi and a wonderful catch for Hakuho, his talent and innovativeness falls short of Mainoumi. However, I feel Enho has more tenacity. If Enho uses his full potential (and gains just a smidge more weight) he could briefly be a sekiwake and more successfully a komusubi. But I think realistically, he might make it to upper joi (M1 - M3). I hope to be wrong. Additionally, I feel that Enho has more motivation to be a sanyaku member - with the new regulations of kabu creation and a kabu title practically reserved for him (No other candidates in the heya or ichimon that I can think of). I suspect his career will be a short one, whether by injury or just leaving once the kabu title is ready and he is ready to assume it. 

*To be fair, I have never watch Mainoumi extensively, and I am quite unsure of somewhat opaque kabu rules. 

kabu title? created? what is this about?

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9 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Mm. I'm less concerned with the circumstances under which Terao left Izutsu and more with the history of the Izutsu kabu itself, and, since Kakuryu wasn't involved, he's still theoretically able to inherit it if the powers that be allow it.

That theoretical ability depends largely on whether Kakuryu obtains Japanese citizenship.  I still haven't heard anything regarding him even applying.  When Hakuho decided to obtain citizenship (after his father was no longer around to object), the papers announced his move well before citizenship was granted.  Kakuryu's post-retirement plans remain a mystery.

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13 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

That theoretical ability depends largely on whether Kakuryu obtains Japanese citizenship.  I still haven't heard anything regarding him even applying.  When Hakuho decided to obtain citizenship (after his father was no longer around to object), the papers announced his move well before citizenship was granted.  Kakuryu's post-retirement plans remain a mystery.

I can't back this up, but I believe Kakuryu applied around the same time as Hakuho, or a little later. I believe I saw something recent which said he'd applied for about 2 years already.

18 minutes ago, sahaven111 said:

kabu title? created? what is this about?

Very loose language. He means Miyagino-kabu is free for Enho since Hakuho is almost guaranteed ichidai toshiyori (the "created" kabu), and won't need the Miyagino name to take over the stable.

Edited by Seiyashi

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6 minutes ago, sahaven111 said:

kabu title? created? what is this about?

fyi, kabu or toshiyori kabu are essentially coaching licenses.  There are a limited number, and only available to retired wrestlers who have had a distinguished career (i.e., significant stay in the Top Division ranks and preferably achieving Sanyaku status).  They have to be purchased, so it makes sense that the higher-paid Sanyaku boys can afford them.  It's the primary if not only way to be part of the Japan Sumo Association after retirement (intai).

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2 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:
6 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

That theoretical ability depends largely on whether Kakuryu obtains Japanese citizenship.  I still haven't heard anything regarding him even applying.  When Hakuho decided to obtain citizenship (after his father was no longer around to object), the papers announced his move well before citizenship was granted.  Kakuryu's post-retirement plans remain a mystery.

I can't back this up, but I believe Kakuryu applied around the same time as Hakuho, or a little later. I believe I saw something recent which said he'd applied for about 2 years already.

https://news.mn/en/789717/

Kakuryu's apparently applied to forsake his Mongolian nationality, if this Mongolian news site can be trusted. But this was late last year. Hakuho abandoned his Mongolian nationality in June last year and got his citizenship by September, but then again he's Hakuho...

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2 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

 

Yes!!! After this basho, I shall be paying closer attention to Kiribayama, Takanosho and Tobizaru. 

I first noticed Kiribayama when he made his debut in Makuuchi in the Hatsu Basho in Jan of this year.  He was so quick and I liked how versatile he was.  He achieved an 11-4 record and won the Fighting Spirit prize.  Per wikipedia, he rode horses from a young age to help his father, who was a sheep-raising nomad in Mongolia.  This strengthened his legs and waist, which was an advantage for sumo.  Kakuryu has been his stablemate since Oct 2019, which can't  hurt.

Takanosho is one of those quiet guys who I think has been under the radar until now.

And who can ever forget what a huge splash The Flying Monkey made this Basho!

Barring injury (further injury for Kiribayama), I see bright futures for all three of these rikishi.

Edited by sumojoann
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2 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I can't back this up, but I believe Kakuryu applied around the same time as Hakuho, or a little later. I believe I saw something recent which said he'd applied for about 2 years already.

Thanks for digging up the Mongolian news source.  But it seems odd to me that there hasn't been as much attention given to it in the Japanese press.  

Frankly, seeing what Kakuryu has done with Kiribayama, I am quite confident that he will make a pretty darn good oyakata.  But I wonder what the real feelings of other oyakata on the JSA are seeing the significant increase in the number of Mongolian stable masters.  

Of course, on paper they would welcome any contribution to the promotion and preservation of oozumo (and after all, former Yokokzunas have the most knowledge to pass down), but I can't help but believe there are some feelings of unease...  And that may not be blatantly racist, but rather a concern that non-Japanese may not be as willing to defend the honoured hinkaku value.  And to put it bluntly, a fear that a non-Japanese (Hakuho, cough, cough) may end up as Rijicho, essentially in control of Japan's so-called national sport...

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Just now, Amamaniac said:

Thanks for digging up the Mongolian news source.  But it seems odd to me that there hasn't been as much attention given to it in the Japanese press.  

Frankly, seeing what Kakuryu has done with Kiribayama, I am quite confident that he will make a pretty darn good oyakata.  But I wonder what the real feelings of other oyakata on the JSA are seeing the significant increase in the number of Mongolian stable masters.  

Of course, on paper they would welcome any contribution to the promotion and preservation of oozumo (and after all, former Yokokzunas have the most knowledge to pass down), but I can't help but believe there are some feelings of unease...  And that may not be blatantly racist, but rather a concern that non-Japanese may not be as willing to defend the honoured hinkaku value.  And to put it bluntly, a fear that a non-Japanese (Hakuho, cough, cough) may end up as Rijicho, essentially in control of Japan's so-called national sport...

I count only Shotenro, Sokokurai, Kyokutenho, and Asasekiryu as Mongolian-born oyakata. Even with Hakuho and Kakuryu joining them, that would be 6 out of 105. Considering the number of Mongolians have stabilised and slightly declined in makuuchi, we'll probably be seeing about this number of oyakata (or even less, since these 6 belong to the generation of bumper Mongolian participation). 

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9 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

https://news.mn/en/789717/

Kakuryu's apparently applied to forsake his Mongolian nationality, if this Mongolian news site can be trusted. But this was late last year.

According to the article, his request to forsake his Mongolian nationality was being "considered" by the President.  Do other nationals require their heads of state to approve the forsaking of nationality?  If that decision is still on ice, I'd say blame it on the pandemic, but stats out of Mongolia suggest that things there are near as bad as elsewhere in the world.

Nevertheless, perhaps the reason the Japanese press is not picking up the story is that Kakuryu has yet to receive the Mongolian President's approval, and thus has yet to apply for Japanese citizenship.  That presents another interesting quandary: will Kakuryu remain active (on the banzuke, at least) until he gets his Japanese citizenship – assuming his Mongolian citizenship is duly revoked, or will he retire and wait for the Japanese citizenship to be approved?  It is uncertain how long this whole process will last, especially in the current global situation.  So Kakuryu may not hang up his tsuna for another two or three tournaments, if not more.

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1 minute ago, Amamaniac said:

According to the article, his request to forsake his Mongolian nationality was being "considered" by the President.  Do other nationals require their heads of state to approve the forsaking of nationality?  If that decision is still on ice, I'd say blame it on the pandemic, but stats out of Mongolia suggest that things there are near as bad as elsewhere in the world.

Nevertheless, perhaps the reason the Japanese press is not picking up the story is that Kakuryu has yet to receive the Mongolian President's approval, and thus has yet to apply for Japanese citizenship.  That presents another interesting quandary: will Kakuryu remain active (on the banzuke, at least) until he gets his Japanese citizenship – assuming his Mongolian citizenship is duly revoked, or will he retire and wait for the Japanese citizenship to be approved?  It is uncertain how long this whole process will last, especially in the current global situation.  So Kakuryu may not hang up his tsuna for another two or three tournaments, if not more.

I think someone has said before that you have to be Japanese at the point of retirement, since you may only join the NSK as an elder the moment you retire, and citizenship is a requirement. Certainly I've never heard of any case of a sumo wrestler who retires and attempts to join the NSK any later.

So Kakuryu is going to have a hard few months ahead, if the authorities on both sides are tardy. He needs to be able to do just enough to keep the YDC off his back until his application gets approved.

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6 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

I count only Shotenro, Sokokurai, Kyokutenho, and Asasekiryu as Mongolian-born oyakata. Even with Hakuho and Kakuryu joining them, that would be 6 out of 105. Considering the number of Mongolians have stabilised and slightly declined in makuuchi, we'll probably be seeing about this number of oyakata (or even less, since these 6 belong to the generation of bumper Mongolian participation). 

Five or six guaranteed votes during rijikai elections is actually quite significant (admittedly not decisive), and from what I've heard, Hakuho does have his supporters among some of the Japanese oyakata as well.

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Just now, Seiyashi said:

So Kakuryu is going to have a hard few months ahead, if the authorities on both sides are tardy. He needs to be able to do just enough to keep the YDC off his back until his application gets approved.

Maybe he could arrange to go to France for surgery, à la Takanohana (7 straight Yokozuna tournament withdrawals). ;-)

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4 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Five or six guaranteed votes during rijikai elections is actually quite significant (admittedly not decisive), and from what I've heard, Hakuho does have his supporters among some of the Japanese oyakata as well.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking as far ahead as rijikai elections - just whether or not the Japanese oyakata would suddenly sit up and think - hey wait, what's one too many foreign oyakata again? And considering Shotenro doesn't even own his kabu, that makes it 3 actual and 2 hypothetical. It may well be that things don't line up for Kakuryu and the YDC gets feisty with him before he gets his citizenship, and out he goes without staying as an elder.

As for rijikai elections, that would be interesting to watch. But that's at least 10-15 years off, so things may change very radically by then.

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1 hour ago, Kashunowaka said:

The next ozeki? Takanosho, obviously. (Bouncingofexcitement...)

Taka? Possible, but perhaps Yasu?

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5 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Taka? Possible, but perhaps Yasu?

I hope so. If he can stay healthy, I think he could regain the rank.

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3 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Taka? Possible, but perhaps Yasu?

Nah, as a former ozeki he doesn't qualify for the Next Ozeki moniker.

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50 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

 

Nevertheless, perhaps the reason the Japanese press is not picking up the story is that Kakuryu has yet to receive the Mongolian President's approval, and thus has yet to apply for Japanese citizenship.  That presents another interesting quandary: will Kakuryu remain active (on the banzuke, at least) until he gets his Japanese citizenship – assuming his Mongolian citizenship is duly revoked, or will he retire and wait for the Japanese citizenship to be approved?  It is uncertain how long this whole process will last, especially in the current global situation.  So Kakuryu may not hang up his tsuna for another two or three tournaments, if not more.

There was a thread dated March 27, 2108 with the title "Kakuryu - What Next".  One of the comments referenced a Japanese  newspaper article which I think was discussing his possible request to renounce his Mongolian citizenship.  The comment indicated that there were several articles after the Hatsu Basho discussing this.  This would have been the Hatsu Basho of 2018!!  The article was in Japanese so I was unable to read it.  Here is the link to Yubinhaad's comment.  In the comment is a link to the newspaper article.

 

Edited by sumojoann
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2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

They are.  Every article relating to him mentions it, using the English word "negative", in case someone doesn't get it. 

I may have missed something but what does it mean that he is “negative”? Pessimistic about his abilities? Always saying bad things about others? A generally unhappy guy?

I have seen him described as negative many times but jot really why people think that. 

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4 minutes ago, Katsunorifuji said:

I may have missed something but what does it mean that he is “negative”? Pessimistic about his abilities? Always saying bad things about others? A generally unhappy guy?

I have seen him described as negative many times but jot really why people think that. 

No, it's regarding himself. It is mentioned specifically in one of my rikishi talk days, don't remember which but around day 5, where there is a full explanation.. OK, found it-day 6:

Shoudai, still with only one loss, beating Tochinoshin: "I'm doing well and my body is moving well. I think I'm able to attack well. " In the past he used to answer in a negative way during interviews regarding his abilities, but this basho he is positive and brimming with confidence. He used to say stuff like "If I could, I wouldn't face anyone.." or "if I imagine a bout I get nervous. I can't even eat.." This basho he says stuff like "I want the yusho! I want to show good results!". "I've learned to face my anxieties. At this point, I feel no fatigue. I'd like to continue like this till the end! " he summed.

Edited by Kintamayama
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1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:

According to the article, his request to forsake his Mongolian nationality was being "considered" by the President.  Do other nationals require their heads of state to approve the forsaking of nationality?  If that decision is still on ice, I'd say blame it on the pandemic, but stats out of Mongolia suggest that things there are near as bad as elsewhere in the world.

I think in most countries this is the case. The ministry handles the case and authorises or not the request of the citizen. When this citizen is famous it often escalates to the head of state. In general, citizenship is not a disposable good, and only the country can cut the link, regardless of the will of the citizen. And with regards to international conventions on statelessness, most countries agree to let people go only when already have another citizenship (and when countries do not want dual citizens, they make people "promise" that they will relinquish their other citizenship, such as japan, please correct me if I am mistaken). I am pretty sure that Hakuho and Kakuryu can secretly keep their mongolian passports if they really want...

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

I think someone has said before that you have to be Japanese at the point of retirement, since you may only join the NSK as an elder the moment you retire, and citizenship is a requirement. Certainly I've never heard of any case of a sumo wrestler who retires and attempts to join the NSK any later.

No, when you are out of NSK, there is no way back (unless Sokokurai exceptional case). So Kakuryu will have to be japanese at the time of retirement to benefit from the yokozuna temporary kabu if he doesn't have bought one yet

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3 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

No, when you are out of NSK, there is no way back (unless Sokokurai exceptional case). So Kakuryu will have to be japanese at the time of retirement to benefit from the yokozuna temporary kabu if he doesn't have bought one yet

If Kakuryu did in fact seek to renounce his Mongolian citizenship back in January 2018 (rather than November 2019 as suggested in the Mongolian report posted above by Seiyasu), then the fact that we have not had any confirmation in the Japanese press that he has applied for Japanese citizenship suggests that something is fishy.  Is the Mongolian President purposely delaying his approval in the hopes that Kakuryu will decide to retire before the approval is granted and then having Japanese citizenship will no longer make a difference?  That's just nasty.

It further begs the question, how much longer can we expect Kakuryu to remain active (i.e., on the banzuke)?  And it also creates an interesting race between Kakuryu (~35yr 2mon) and Hakuho (~35yr 7mon) to see who will break Chiyonofuji's record for oldest Yokozuna yusho (~35yr 6mon)...

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2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

https://news.mn/en/789717/

Kakuryu's apparently applied to forsake his Mongolian nationality, if this Mongolian news site can be trusted. But this was late last year. Hakuho abandoned his Mongolian nationality in June last year and got his citizenship by September, but then again he's Hakuho...

The last time I looked deeply into this is that as long as you can prove a past and future income of $100k+ USD per year it is relatively easy to fast track citizenship in Japan. I think this part Kakuryu is not too worried about.

33 minutes ago, Nantonoyama said:

I am pretty sure that Hakuho and Kakuryu can secretly keep their mongolian passports if they really want...

Indeed, we have many people in our company that enter Japan on a Japanese passport and the US on an American passport...

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5 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

The last time I looked deeply into this is that as long as you can prove a past and future income of $100k+ USD per year it is relatively easy to fast track citizenship in Japan. I think this part Kakuryu is not too worried about.

Indeed, we have many people in our company that enter Japan on a Japanese passport and the US on an American passport...

I wish there were a "Wow" icon.  That was a surprise.

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