Kintamayama

September (Aki) Basho- offical thread (yay..)

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15 minutes ago, Katsunorifuji said:

With Asanoyama’s early struggles the talk about a Yokozuna run went away. But let’s think more general about this, what are the chances we don’t see a new Yokozuna for several years?

We talk about the inconsistency among the top rankers but maybe parity is a better word. These guys are evenly matched enough that it’s really difficult for someone to dominate and win two yusho in a row. Common sense seems to indicate that one of the guys in the top 5 should be able to pull it off at some point, and someone could always break out, but given what we’ve seen I wouldn’t be shocked if Ozeki was the top rank on the banzuke for a while once Hakuho and Kakuryu retire. 

On the other hand, i can see Hakuho, Kakuryu, or both (Ok, honestly mainly Hakuho) sticking around until there is a new yokozuna.

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4 hours ago, sahaven111 said:

The last time one sole maegashira lead the yusho race undefeated on day 5 was in Aki 2017... it was none other than our man, Onosho. he would finish the tournament 10-5, and the yusho ended in, you guessed it. an 11-4 playoff between Harumafuji and Goeido.

So what you’re saying is, now Harumafuji and Goeido have both retired nobody stands in his way and the yusho is guaranteed to be Onosho’s ...

Edited by Eikokurai
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5 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

Unpopular opinion -- we're writing off Asanoyama too soon.

1 hour ago, sahaven111 said:

On the other hand, i can see Hakuho, Kakuryu, or both (Ok, honestly mainly Hakuho) sticking around until there is a new yokozuna.

Agree that folks wrote off Asa too early - especially when the man is regaining nerve and the yusho likely being a 11-4 or 12-3 affair. I believe he will make yokozuna (barring unforeseen disaster) but not before Takasago retires as I think he doesn't yet have the nerve. I hope this prediction doesn't come back to bite me (Laughing...)

The crux of the Nokozuna issue would be: (1) Whether Asa gains Yokozuna in the next 9 months, (2) Kakuryu's November performance, which might give him the boot thus making Hakuho the only one, (3) Whether Olympics are happening, (4) Whether Hakuho has to do an early retirement due to catastrophe vs. stylish retirement vs. wanting to ensure a smooth transition. 

Things might seem sleepy now, but the biggest upheavals of sumo is coming. I wouldn't miss for the world. I am very excited to see what happens in the next 9 months. :-D

Edited by pricklypomegranate
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The Geek will be back on day 7 and he faces off against the struggling pixie. Who will have the better outcome?

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1 hour ago, WAKATAKE said:

The Geek will be back on day 7 and he faces off against the struggling pixie. Who will have the better outcome?

Yikes. 

If Enho loses to Kotoshogiku in that state, I think that Hakuho might just disown him (Laughing...)

But on a serious note though, I am seriously worried Kotoshogiku might have a career-ending or even permanent injury. Toyonoshima seemed very concerned. Was Kotoshogiku given the ultimatum? 

Either way, this is horrible. 

Edited by pricklypomegranate
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Doesn't look like Terunofuji intends to lose any more bouts. He would be the first Makunouchi Yusho winner starting with two losses.

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Rikishi weren't gonna fall for Terutsuyoshi's deliberate-matta-then-henka routine forever...

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Terutsuyoshi's matta was a good 6 on the Hoshikaze scale.

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What a very entertaining day's sumo. What's with the number of false starts? I was laughing at my monitor while Chiyotairyu was failing to stop himself grinning!

Cba to go back and quote myself, but I said Asanoyama could still win out and go 12-3 a couple of days ago. An excellent win from a seeming disadvantageous position against the dangerous Myogiryu today. 

I still believe Asanoyama will be the next yokozuna, by the way. I reckon he's at about prime Kisenosato level now, which is good enough if he can get the right run of results. I believe he's going to get even better than that, though. When he gets to prime Kakuryu level and starts posting 14-1s, there will be no argument about it; those are the numbers yokozuna candidates need to post IMO.

No one's quite there yet, but it'll be interesting to see how close Takakeisho can come this time. The last few days could get very messy.

Are bionic knees a thing now? Is that what Terunofuji's got hidden under all that bandaging and framework? Okay, I was wrong to suggest he should go back to Mongolia and start a new career while he was still young enough. The way he's going he can get back to ozeki - if those knees stay intact. I don't believe he'll have an easy ride, though - no borderline 32/45 next time.

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Man Takarafuji is strong. Aoiyama put all of his 200kg weight on him going forward, gave him his strongest shoves, was down low so he had leverage, and Takarafuji just shrugged it off and pushed him backwards. Repeatedly. I'm not sure how he lost that. He may have short(ish) arms but I wouldn't want to arm wrestle him - he'd pull your arm off.

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6 hours ago, Katsunorifuji said:

We talk about the inconsistency among the top rankers but maybe parity is a better word. These guys are evenly matched enough that it’s really difficult for someone to dominate and win two yusho in a row. Common sense seems to indicate that one of the guys in the top 5 should be able to pull it off at some point, and someone could always break out, but given what we’ve seen I wouldn’t be shocked if Ozeki was the top rank on the banzuke for a while once Hakuho and Kakuryu retire. 

The parity argument sounds good, but - two yusho in the row is not the only requirement for yokozuna. If Asanoyama and Takakeisho are joined at ozeki by say, at least Shodai (going by performance this tournament, he's probably the only undeniable candidate), each of the three of them will only meet the other two once each; if they are evenly matched, this suggests that a playoff will be the likely result of such round-robin meetings. There is ample precedent for double promotions after a playoff. All it takes is for the two best in form to meet each other twice in a playoff regardless of the result; this would probably be treated as an "equivalent performance".

Today was almost the day of Winning Sumo with Weird Body Parts. Kaisei won with a shoulder barge, Takayasu nearly did a butt shove against Tokushoryu, and Takarafuji got thrust down by a lateral shove to the back of the neck. 

Kiribayama has been watching Takakeisho videos; that double-handed shove to Tamawashi's neck looked really familiar. I believe even the NHK commentators mentioned Takakeisho's name.

Shodai looking stupidly powerful here. Who'd have thought the trick to neutralising Tochinoshin's belt is to hug him and not let go?

Asanoyama is back in the groove, and so is Terunofuji. Takakeisho not very happy with that matta. I think I know the name of the top 6 sekitori for the next GTB.

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24 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

What a very entertaining day's sumo. What's with the number of false starts? I was laughing at my monitor while Chiyotairyu was failing to stop himself grinning!

Today was bad for rikishi-initiated matta; two days ago, it was gyoji and shimpan matta madness, and yesterday and today, the double-hand touchdown requirement for tachiai was all over the place. I wouldn't be surprised if the rikishi got confused. Wish the shimpan would be a lot more consistent about enforcing it; the discrepancy in three days is very obvious.

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11 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

His previous spell at Ozeki could actually work against him. His record at the rank wasn’t great and he then he got demoted after just 14 basho (one less than Takayasu, for comparison). While obviously we all know that was because of injuries and illness, the point is he did fall and maybe to the banzuke guys that is the only relevant fact. I think they are likely to follow protocol and require him to make Sekiwake before he becomes eligible for Ozeki re-promotion. I can’t see them letting him skip junior sanyaku. Miyabiyama had the bar raised for his second attempt and though the circumstances are not quite the same (no previous yusho and only eight basho at the rank), it’s the closest we have to a modern precedent. We can also look at Kaiketsu, who held the rank twice. His path back included an M4 yusho (his second) followed by two basho at Sekiwake. He didn’t seem to gain any privilege from his previous Ozeki stint.

It’s an interesting question nonetheless and back-to-back yusho by a hiramaku would be quite something and certainly force the banzuke committee to at least ask the question.

I reckon that the Powers That Be will do whatever they want and if they feel like promoting him, they will... That's how they usually operate

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2 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

But on a serious note though, I am seriously worried Kotoshogiku might have a career-ending or even permanent injury. Toyonoshima seemed very concerned. Was Kotoshogiku given the ultimatum? 

It's probably what some people on this thread have earlier guessed - Kotoshogiku will try and save his place in the top division. Sumodb shows the rough line in recent times is 9 losses - any more than that, and it's most likely juryo for him at his rank. If he doesn't save it, I think he will retire; it's probably not really an ultimatum but just a wish to go out fighting.

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3 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

It's probably what some people on this thread have earlier guessed - Kotoshogiku will try and save his place in the top division. Sumodb shows the rough line in recent times is 9 losses - any more than that, and it's most likely juryo for him at his rank. If he doesn't save it, I think he will retire; it's probably not really an ultimatum but just a wish to go out fighting.

I wouldn't be surprised if Shohozan gets a win and then retires as well

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11 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

His previous spell at Ozeki could actually work against him. His record at the rank wasn’t great and he then he got demoted after just 14 basho (one less than Takayasu, for comparison). While obviously we all know that was because of injuries and illness, the point is he did fall and maybe to the banzuke guys that is the only relevant fact. I think they are likely to follow protocol and require him to make Sekiwake before he becomes eligible for Ozeki re-promotion. I can’t see them letting him skip junior sanyaku. Miyabiyama had the bar raised for his second attempt and though the circumstances are not quite the same (no previous yusho and only eight basho at the rank), it’s the closest we have to a modern precedent. We can also look at Kaiketsu, who held the rank twice. His path back included an M4 yusho (his second) followed by two basho at Sekiwake. He didn’t seem to gain any privilege from his previous Ozeki stint.

It’s an interesting question nonetheless and back-to-back yusho by a hiramaku would be quite something and certainly force the banzuke committee to at least ask the question.

I don't even think you need to review his past ozeki spell. Two yusho, while unprecedented, is still a stupidly hot streak, and making it to ozeki with less than three tournaments in the top division let alone sanyaku proper is surely against the whole idea of requiring consistent performance in the joi over a period. No way can you seriously say that Terunofuji fought the whole joi last tournament, and this tournament, even if he doesn't yusho, is probably the start of another ozeki run.

What would be interesting is if he yushos next tournament at sekiwake. That would really cause some head scratching for the banzuke committee, and is where I think they will pull out all the stops to either promote him or not promote him.

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3 minutes ago, Morty said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Shohozan gets a win and then retires as well

Kotoshogiku is holding the Hidenoyama elder stock, but Shohozan does not, and the only other vacant stock is Furiwake (Takamisakari's old stock before he took over Azumazeki stable), which is off-ichimon (Shohozan is Nishonoseki, Furiwake is nominally Takasago). I'm not sure if that will affect his ability to borrow it. 

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14 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Today was almost the day of Winning Sumo with Weird Body Parts. Kaisei won with a shoulder barge, Takayasu nearly did a butt shove against Tokushoryu, and Takarafuji got thrust down by a lateral shove to the back of the neck. 

Well spotted. Kotoeko finished with a strange move as well.

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All the pre-tournament yusho "favourites" (Asanoyama, Takakeisho, Shodai, Mitakeumi, Terunofuji) really showed great Sumo today, no weakness from the top rankers today. 
Playoff for the yusho incoming? :)

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5 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Agree that folks wrote off Asa too early - especially when the man is regaining nerve and the yusho likely being a 11-4 or 12-3 affair. I believe he will make yokozuna (barring unforeseen disaster) but not before Takasago retires as I think he doesn't yet have the nerve. I hope this prediction doesn't come back to bite me (Laughing...)

The crux of the Nokozuna issue would be: (1) Whether Asa gains Yokozuna in the next 9 months, (2) Kakuryu's November performance, which might give him the boot thus making Hakuho the only one, (3) Whether Olympics are happening, (4) Whether Hakuho has to do an early retirement due to catastrophe vs. stylish retirement vs. wanting to ensure a smooth transition. 

Things might seem sleepy now, but the biggest upheavals of sumo is coming. I wouldn't miss for the world. I am very excited to see what happens in the next 9 months. :-D

Probably fairly likely that Kakuryu retires by either November or January, or even earlier if he gets citizenship. He's been making some noises about how at his age, he really shouldn't be wrestling; you could say his heart isn't quite in it any more.

I agree Asanoyama probably won't have the nerve to get the rope before Takasago retires unless he pulls off a miracle this basho, but I don't expect him to be promoted before he fouls up one more attempt (i.e., with one yusho and he being explicitly declared to be on a yusho run by the NSK/YDC). That said, I also agree he's still in it especially after Onosho's loss; he has yet to fight the rest of the sanyaku.

I believe they have said that the Olympics will go on as best they can, so Hakuho will do whatever it takes to get there. His surgery after the last basho is proof of that; he needs his body to continue to produce yokozuna standard sumo till then; otherwise there's really little point in undertaking such procedures at this time.

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4 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:
19 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Today was almost the day of Winning Sumo with Weird Body Parts. Kaisei won with a shoulder barge, Takayasu nearly did a butt shove against Tokushoryu, and Takarafuji got thrust down by a lateral shove to the back of the neck. 

Well spotted. Kotoeko finished with a strange move as well.

Ah yes - so that's the bout I thought I missed. It was a weird combination of gaburi-yori and an arm-windmill/armpit shove to end things off!?

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24 minutes ago, Morty said:

Man Takarafuji is strong.

Since Tosanoumi and Kasugao are intai, from all active rikishi I'd choose Takarafuji's body if I had to do sumo.

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34 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Since Tosanoumi and Kasugao are intai, from all active rikishi I'd choose Takarafuji's body if I had to do sumo.

Behold, the man who has no neck. Why did Kiribayama attempt a neck throw against he who is essentially neckless? 

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13 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

His previous spell at Ozeki could actually work against him. His record at the rank wasn’t great and he then he got demoted after just 14 basho (one less than Takayasu, for comparison). While obviously we all know that was because of injuries and illness, the point is he did fall and maybe to the banzuke guys that is the only relevant fact. I think they are likely to follow protocol and require him to make Sekiwake before he becomes eligible for Ozeki re-promotion. I can’t see them letting him skip junior sanyaku. Miyabiyama had the bar raised for his second attempt and though the circumstances are not quite the same (no previous yusho and only eight basho at the rank), it’s the closest we have to a modern precedent. We can also look at Kaiketsu, who held the rank twice. His path back included an M4 yusho (his second) followed by two basho at Sekiwake. He didn’t seem to gain any privilege from his previous Ozeki stint.

It’s an interesting question nonetheless and back-to-back yusho by a hiramaku would be quite something and certainly force the banzuke committee to at least ask the question.

That was my point.

You bring up some interesting comparisons.  If indeed Miyabiyama is the closest case, then Terunofuji's record is actually significantly better.  Terunofuji reached Ozeki with a runner up finish and a yusho finish (Miyabiyama only started his Ozeki run with a runner-up finish).  More importantly, Terunofuji had three more runner-up finishes "as an Ozeki" and in two of those tournaments, he reached the playoff stage.  His Ozeki career while short (shortened by injury) was pretty stellar IMHO.  Miyabiyama did not come close to putting up the same numbers in his shorter Ozeki career, i.e., failed to contend for a yusho as an Ozeki!

And if the "bar was raised" for Miyabiyama in "his second attempt" - going from M7e to S1w with a random runner-up finish, then what would you call Terunofuji going from M1e to S1e with two consecutive yusho?  I know the rules are rules argument, and I am prepared to accept it.  However, it would scream "Terunofuji was robbed!"

Teru won again today keeping him in the yusho race.  Let's see if he will force the issue by going all the way and taking the Emperor's Cup again.

Edited by Amamaniac

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1 hour ago, Jakusotsu said:

Since Tosanoumi and Kasugao are intai, from all active rikishi I'd choose Takarafuji's body if I had to do sumo.

I'd choose Akiseyama's (or maybe not)... ;-)

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