Kintamayama

September (Aki) Basho- offical thread (yay..)

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5 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Also Izutsu on Abema hoped for a 13-0 by Onosho - the strict tachi-ai measures after a while again mess up many bouts, but Onosho went through with it on the 3rd try

They could certainly be stricter- I thought that even some of the bouts with multiple matta had iffy tachiai that weren't called matta today. 

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Ichinojo was in good form today against Kaisei. It's nice to see him doing forward sumo. I was worried about Tobizaru, I didn't like how his knee got caught under him when he went down, but he seemed to be okay afterwards. Despite his loss today, I have been very impressed with Takanosho. With three wins over San'yaku opponents so far, a kachi koshi could also net him his second sansho. Finally, Shodai again demonstrates the incredible power that left Yutakayama in awe prior to the September Basho. 

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On ‎16‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 08:08, Kintamayama said:

I just saw ex-Terao in an interview. Some thing is definitely wrong with him. He looked very ill and spoke slowly with a lot of lapses. Very worrying.


Yesterday was the first anniversary of his brother Sakahoko's death. Nikkan wrote a nice article to mark the occasion.

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2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Reviewing this page of the current thread, I see nary a mention to Takakeisho (except perhaps for Seiyashi's "the two ozeki").  

Most of the attention seems to be focused on Onosho, Shodai and Terunofuji.  Granted, there is good reason to be looking closely at these early yusho contenders.  But I am getting increasingly impressed by Takakeisho's performance this time around.  In July, it was pretty clear that he was still dealing with lingering injury issues as he struggled to get that vital KK.  But in this tournament, he seems to have been reborn (some thanks are probably due Yukina Chiba).  

Takakeisho's oshi-zumo game seems to be on point.  All four of his wins thus far have been oshidashi wins.  And what has impressed me is that his thrusts are hitting center mass (i.e., the middle of his opponents' chests) with new regularity.  He also seems to be taking advantage of his short statue, in that his opponents' thrusts are hitting him at neck and face level which don't have the most effective impact.  And despite having short arms, Takakeisho's thrusting power is lethal.  

As long as he can keep his opponents off his belt, he should be more or less unbeatable...

Well, my short list was based on today's performances relative to the rest of their basho so far, and to be honest my two ozeki referred to Asanoyama and Terunofuji, not Takakeisho! 

But yeah Takakeisho has been performing very well this basho, perhaps the best of all the sanyaku. Like I mentioned earlier, this is probably his basho because the stars are aligning for him. I have no doubt about his mental game especially now, but here's hoping he can keep himself healthy for a while yet. 

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32 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:


Yesterday was the first anniversary of his brother Sakahoko's death. Nikkan wrote a nice article to mark the occasion.

He looked really ill, not just sad. Shaven pate, looking pale, and pauses in his speech. In fact, he looked as bad as how Musashigawa was in the intai pictures of his nephew. 

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7 hours ago, since_94 said:
14 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

I think Terunofuji can regain the rank but I’m not sure about your timeline. Shodai is already one basho into his run and likely will be two by the time this one is done, so next time around could be the clincher and he’s in the form needed to achieve it. Terunofuji on the other hand is only starting. His yusho win at M17 is unlikely to be counted and since he’s still just M1 now he will probably need a Y/JY this time for it to be counted too, or at the very least a convincing third place (say, 12 wins, if that remains possible). Thus Shodai could make Ozeki a basho or two sooner than Terunofuji.

Drat! These accursed cogent and well-articulated arguments of yours are making mince of my ill-conceived scattershot prognostications! You make eminent sense, and I defer to your understanding of the nuances of promotion deliberations. I will leave my baseless prediction dangling out there anyway, for all to see, on the off chance it will come to pass, whereupon I shall trumpet myself as a clairvoyant. Not that I wish any misfortune on Shodai, mind you.

Terunofuji could present a unique dilemma for the Judges Committee/YDC.  

Under normal circumstances, wrestlers have to go on a successful in-the-sanyaku-ranks, three-basho Ozeki Run, after which two straight yusho or a near equivalent gets them promotion to Yokozuna.  Let's just imagine that Terunofuji does the unbelievable: wins this tournament making it two straight Top Division championships.  Two straight yusho as a rank-and-filer would be a first, not to mention an incredible second chapter to the Mongolian's comeback.

In that event, Terunofuji would technically not be eligible for either Ozeki promotion or Yokozuna promotion.  But The Judges Committee would have to recognise two things: (1) a wrestler in the Top Division (i.e., Teru) had just achieved something that not even all Yokozunas can claim: two consecutive Top Division yusho, and (2) Terunofuji already has an Ozeki pedigree.  So the question is: would they play by the letter of the promotion laws and merely send him up to Sekiwake 1e, or would they give him special consideration and restore his Ozeki status?  Frankly, the current banzuke is in poor shape (if I can put it that way).  Will Terunofuji rewrite oozumo's history books with a never-before-seen unconventional Ozeki promotion?

But the only way we will ever know is if ... IF Terunofuji somehow wins this tournament.

 

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If my dbquery was right, two consecutive yusho as non-Y/O is unprecedented?

If Terunofuji wins it, it's sekiwake for him. Rules are rules, they would say.

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1 hour ago, hakutorizakura said:

If Terunofuji wins it, it's sekiwake for him. Rules are rules, they would say.

Agreed. A yusho at M17 is nice, but way too far from Sanyaku level.

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I think the increasing absence of the top guys means that the scheduling committee needs to make it a little harder for the guys just up from Juryo to hit 12-0 before they face anyone good.  Day 4, 8, and 12 could be set up as special days where the matchups are decided by record only, with top-ranked facing lowest-ranked at each number of wins.  This would mean that an M17 getting to 12-0 would at least have faced two or three top guys to get that far, and would only change things slightly: the joi would extend only to M3 or M4 instead of a bit further as it usually does.  It's great to see two M17 yushos and a chance at a third in one calendar year, but part of the reason this is happening is the scheduling traditions, where they assume M17 will goof up somewhere along the line and kick it down the road to Day 13, and suddenly the M17 has to fight the top guys and we miss an Ozeki-Ozeki matchup that had been saved for the end.

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On 17/09/2020 at 09:01, Seiyashi said:

Well, my short list was based on today's performances relative to the rest of their basho so far, and to be honest my two ozeki referred to Asanoyama and Terunofuji, not Takakeisho! 

But yeah Takakeisho has been performing very well this basho, perhaps the best of all the sanyaku. Like I mentioned earlier, this is probably his basho because the stars are aligning for him. I have no doubt about his mental game especially now, but here's hoping he can keep himself healthy for a while yet. 

Yes, I am impressed with Takakeisho this basho. With the extra weight, and seemngly having had knee issues at the end of the last tournament, I suspected he could easily flirt wit kadoban this basho. I reality he's definitely a yusho contender.

I picked Asanoyama to win and Enho to KK, though, so what do I know...

Edited by Kaminariyuki
typos
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I agree with Amamaniac, my one and only yusho prediction for this basho: Takakeisho takes it with a 12-3 with multiple Jun yushos at 11-4. Hardly crystal ball level predictions to say an Ozeki will win it I guess (Laughing...)

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Events have settled into something resembling normalcy. Still, not going to get too comfortable with that, as things can change very quickly.

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This is a long shot, with 10 days to go you can't really accurately predict the yusho winner, but i say that it will either be a win where someone does better than ever before, or an 11-4 yusho. I would say technically anyone with a 4-1 or better right now could win it, especially if we go the 11-4 route. and out of the 3-2s, Mitakeumi, Endo, Myogiryu, and Kagayaki are too inconsistent. Terunofuji and Takanosho have fought the best of his opposition, so he could win it. and Kiribayama, Wakatakakage and Hoshoryu are much too new to be likely contenders, but you never know, given the recent times (Sadanoyama won a yusho in his 2nd Maegashira Tournament, iirc.) and i wouldn't count Meisei with his fusen win (a win is a win, however, so you never know). Only Asanoyama out of the "More-losses-than-wins group" i think has the ability to win out, or almost do so. On the other hand he hasn't faced his greatest competition yet. A recent trend i've seen around different sites is a "tier list"...

...So here it is:

Tier 1: Takakeisho, Shodai, Onosho
Tier 2: Mitakeumi, Terunofuji, Takayasu, Ichinojo

Tier 3: Asanoyama, Endo, Takanosho, Kiribayama

Tier 4: Takarafuji, Chiyotairyu, Tobizaru, Myogiryu, Kotoshoho

Tier 5: Kagayaki, Meisei, Wakatakakage, Hoshoryu

Mere Fodder: Everyone else except Shohozan

I'm only saying this so i get a "laugh" emoji: Shohozan

 

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4 hours ago, Ichimawashi said:

I think the increasing absence of the top guys means that the scheduling committee needs to make it a little harder for the guys just up from Juryo to hit 12-0 before they face anyone good.

Keep in mind that the Yusho, if you look at a big enough picture, is a relatively recent invention (although it is a major prize now).  The purpose of the honbasho is to determine the next banzuke, and as such rikishi mainly will fight those near to them in rank.  Only in the last 5 days do the number of available rikishi ranked near to someone tend to dwindle and bouts are decided more by record than by ranking.

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8 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

But The Judges Committee would have to recognise two things: (1) a wrestler in the Top Division (i.e., Teru) had just achieved something that not even all Yokozunas can claim: two consecutive Top Division yusho, and (2) Terunofuji already has an Ozeki pedigree.

His previous spell at Ozeki could actually work against him. His record at the rank wasn’t great and he then he got demoted after just 14 basho (one less than Takayasu, for comparison). While obviously we all know that was because of injuries and illness, the point is he did fall and maybe to the banzuke guys that is the only relevant fact. I think they are likely to follow protocol and require him to make Sekiwake before he becomes eligible for Ozeki re-promotion. I can’t see them letting him skip junior sanyaku. Miyabiyama had the bar raised for his second attempt and though the circumstances are not quite the same (no previous yusho and only eight basho at the rank), it’s the closest we have to a modern precedent. We can also look at Kaiketsu, who held the rank twice. His path back included an M4 yusho (his second) followed by two basho at Sekiwake. He didn’t seem to gain any privilege from his previous Ozeki stint.

It’s an interesting question nonetheless and back-to-back yusho by a hiramaku would be quite something and certainly force the banzuke committee to at least ask the question.

Edited by Eikokurai
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Unpopular opinion -- we're writing off Asanoyama too soon.

Day 1 & 2 Losses to Endo and Takanosho respectively. A Komusubi and M1 who were both in excellent form the first few days. Not great, but not so terrible and certainly not unjustifiable.

Day 3 - Loss to Terunofuji, former ozeki, current M1/defending champion and total wild card. Not great, but not so terrible and certainly not unjustifiable.

With each of those losses we saw a dent in his confidence, too. Which wouldn't have helped. 

Day 4 - Stong win against a resilient joi-constant in Hokutofuji.

Day 5 - Confidence building win against Tamawashi.

In theory, his run home isn't so bad. The remaining san'yaku (excepting Shodai and maybe Takakeisho) haven't looked all that strong. If he can get some confidence building wins against rank and filers he could come into form at the right time. He'll likely need to win out, sure, but he's capable of that. 2 more losses each for Shodai and Takakeisho isn't unthinkable. 

I'm not saying it's the LIKELY outcome, but it's well within the realms of possibility for me. There's a recent enough precedent too with Harumafuji's 2017 Aki yusho. He was 2-3 on Day five and got the 11-4 yusho. 

I'm holding out hope he can start a Tsuna run. That said a Shodai, Takakeisho or Terunofuji win are all also super exciting propositions.

 

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I have a feeling there will be a playoff and Shodai once again will NOT be taking the yusho.

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5 hours ago, Shatsume said:

I agree with Amamaniac, my one and only yusho prediction for this basho: Takakeisho takes it with a 12-3 with multiple Jun yushos at 11-4. Hardly crystal ball level predictions to say an Ozeki will win it I guess (Laughing...)

It's been 3½ years since an ozeki yusho, so that's as radical as predictions get.

Edited by yohcun
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The last time one sole maegashira lead the yusho race undefeated on day 5 was in Aki 2017... it was none other than our man, Onosho. he would finish the tournament 10-5, and the yusho ended in, you guessed it. an 11-4 playoff between Harumafuji and Goeido.

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Starting to look like Enho's only remaining go-to move comes from Gene Hackman in Mississippi Burning...

 

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Day 5 would have been a good day to show someone new to sumo what the sport is all about. That Endo-Okonoumi match, WOW!

Wide open race. Nice to see Onosho bounce back, but with his regular balance issues, I can't see him not literally slipping up 3-4 times over the course of the remaining 10 days. I do think we're in store for a 12-3 yusho, with the rare 11-4 yusho a plausibility with all the inter-sanyaku/joi bouts to come.

That is... unless Ichinojo runs the table :)

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55 minutes ago, Ichimawashi said:

Starting to look like Enho's only remaining go-to move comes from Gene Hackman in Mississippi Burning...

When I watched it live I was actually surprised he wasn't flagged for even the slightest hint of a kinjite. After the slo-mo I thought he grabbed the front horizontal bit of the mawashi, but still unsure because of all that spinning. 

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With Asanoyama’s early struggles the talk about a Yokozuna run went away. But let’s think more general about this, what are the chances we don’t see a new Yokozuna for several years?

We talk about the inconsistency among the top rankers but maybe parity is a better word. These guys are evenly matched enough that it’s really difficult for someone to dominate and win two yusho in a row. Common sense seems to indicate that one of the guys in the top 5 should be able to pull it off at some point, and someone could always break out, but given what we’ve seen I wouldn’t be shocked if Ozeki was the top rank on the banzuke for a while once Hakuho and Kakuryu retire. 

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4 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

Unpopular opinion -- we're writing off Asanoyama too soon.

I had the same thought after watching his match today. He seems to be getting his confidence back. Hopefully he keeps up the momentum and salvages what looked to be a lost basho two days ago. 

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