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Houmanumi

Potential New Game

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Hi All, I've been running a 'Fantasy Sumo' game for a year-ish now (before I even knew about this forum), just with my workmates. I've finally automated it and have a domain name, and if the wider group is interested I'd like to open it up to members of the Forum (from the next tournament). I'm just not sure if something very much like it exists? It's pretty simple. In short:

  • Rikishi are placed in 6 groups of 7 by rank order
  • A player picks one wrestler from each group as their 'stable'
    • You also pick one alternate per group in case of kyujo - but only one of these alternates can be used per tournament.
  • If your wrestler wins, you get a point - (so max points you can win in a day is 6)
  • If they don't win, you don't get a point.
  • The player with the most points at the end of the tournament, wins!

There's a player ranking system like other games and some other little rules I'd obviously make sure were clear before hand, but that's the gist. Would anyone be keen? Or does this basically already exist?

Cheers!

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Houmanumi said:
  • Rikishi are placed in 6 groups of 7 by rank order
  • A player picks one wrestler from each group as their 'stable'
    • You also pick one alternate per group in case of kyujo - but only one of these alternates can be used per tournament.
  • If your wrestler wins, you get a point - (so max points you can win in a day is 6)
  • If they don't win, you don't get a point.
  • The player with the most points at the end of the tournament, wins!

Sounds like late Fantasy Sumo (where one point was awarded for win) or current Rotosumo (where points are awarded based on the oponents rank) - see rotosumo.sumogames.de.

Edited by Ruziklao

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This sounds like a combo of RotoSumo and Bench Sumo. Still, I’m open to hearing more. I currently play 22 games. What’s one more? :-)

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Yeah and the old Fantasy Sumo has been discontinued so there may be a space for something like that. Obviously similar to Rotosumo too.

All the Superbanzuke games are here:

http://99998271.com/sb/

 

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Actually, there was also GISP on the Superbanzuke, before it was discontinued. You picked 1 Yokozuna, 1 Ozeki, 1 Sekiwake, 1 Komusubi, and 5 Maegashira. And just like your concept, points were simply added without any extra rules. I surely liked the simplicity of GISP and Fantasy Sumo. And I remember an analysis I did many years ago that GISP had a very high correlation between its standings and the Superbanzuke ranks (in other words, it was one of the best games in predicting general sumo gaming abilities).

There is one thing I would consider, though. If you stick with six groups of 7 rikishi, most players are likely to pick identical rikishi in the first two groups. That would mostly be a Yokozuna in group 1, and mostly a Sekiwake in group 2 (when a Sekiwake is eligible). That would narrow the options.

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Posted (edited)

Fantasy Sumo used to be one of my favourites.

But I agree with Randomitsuki regarding the top two ranks.

Fantasy Sumo had a 'work-around' in which sometimes the ranks were not quite right.  For example, Terunofuji could have been put in the top group (yes, I know a little hindsight might have been required...) [FS also used to have Hakuho equal two other rikishi. But I am not sure how that would work with your game.]

Or, (my suggestion) maybe Yokozuna wins count 0.6, Ozeki wins count 0.8 and Sekiwake wins count 0.9.  (I think no need to modify a komusubi, as they are pretty much in the same meat grinder as a joi-jin player.)

Edited by Jejima

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Seven groups of 6 might neaten/even things up...?

The resulting top three groups (of 18) would end up being the sanyaku plus joi-jin (taking into account withdrawals and same heya rikishi).

The fourth group would then be the first group that had rikishi fairly unlikely to go into the meat-grinder.  

With the current system, of groups of 7, the third group (#15- 21), would be made up of meat-grinder fodder and non-sausage meat. The more astute players would unlikely to ever pick #15 or 16 (and perhaps 17), making a waste of the rikishi at those ranks.

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Posted (edited)

There are already two games that follow the same principle and that are not listed in this forum (and that may be worth considering for the Superbanzuke):

Kachi Clash with 158 players for the July Basho and very basic rules

Pick ONE rikishi from EACH of the ranked sections:

Y-O | S-K | M1-M5 | M6-M10 | M11-M17

Each time one of your picks wins a bout, you get 1 point.

Note that the game itself doesn't have a Banzuke

Basho Contest with around 60 players on Reddit and the rules are

Pick a rikishi in the top division up to the rank for each category slot. Your first pick can be any wrestler in the top division up to a yokozuna. Next can be any up to ozeki and so on.

You can edit up until the basho begins. Just make a note when you make an edit what you did. You have through the 5th day to make a substitute due to injury only. If you fail to note why you made an edit after the basho starts, you may be penalized a couple of ranks. No big deal, just try not to cheat folks.

Category 1: One rikishi M16+ up to Yokozuna

Category 2: One rikishi M16+ up to Ozeki

Category 3: One rikishi M16+ up to Sekiwake

Category 4: One rikishi M16+ up to Komusubi

Category 5: One rikishi M16+ up to M1

Category 6: One rikishi M16+ up to M6

Category 7: One rikishi M16+ up to M11

Scoring will be calculated three times during this basho. After the 5th day, after the 10th day, and after the final day.

Each time the scoring is calculated, the following will apply.

Ratios:

Win/Loss Ratio >= 1.3:1 you gain an additional rank.

Win/Loss Ratio >= 1.5:1 you gain an additional 2 full ranks.

Win/Loss Ratio >= 1.75:1 you gain an additional 3 full ranks.

Win/Loss Ratio >= 2:1 you gain an additional 4 full ranks.

Win/Loss Ratio >= 2.25:1 you gain an additional 5 full ranks.

Win/Loss Ratio >= 2.5:1 you can an additional 6 full ranks.

Win/Loss Ratio >= 3:1 you gain an additional 8 full ranks.

Win/Loss Ratio of 4:1 or higher, you'll get an additional 10 full ranks.

After the final day, we will also look at the overall score. Winning Record gets an additional 4 full ranks. If you participate and don't get a kachikoshi, well, you'll get 1 rank as a consolation prize.

If one of your non-yokozuna wrestlers wins the basho, you get an extra 2.5 ranks. If one of your non-yokozuna wrestlers gets a special prize, you'll get a bonus 1.5 ranks per prize.

Interestingly, for ranking purpose, everybody has started in Jonokuchi and only one player has reached Juryo yet.

 

Edited by Tameiki

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I missed a lot of the recent discussion on this, I really appreciate it from everyone. Interestingly enough my game is simply called 'Fantasy Sumo' too! Might have to look at a name/domain change!

No doubt my game is quite simple, it was aimed towards my co-workers who knew nothing of sumo but thought it would be a laugh. So to a degree I suppose I will always want to keep it aimed towards the beginner/casual sumo fan; and also something of a 'set and forget' as opposed to the games which require daily participation. I barely managed Bench sumo alone this tournament, I don't know how you guys do it!

On the point of the groupings, more often than not, especially of late, picking a Yokozuna/Ozeki hasn't paid off, but I appreciate the point and am aware that as soon as we see some new cream rise to the crop that is likely to change. I'm not bothered by people picking the same wrestler in one spot tbh, the difference will then be made up elsewhere, and a kyujo can really throw a spanner in the works.

I do have a banzuke, at the end of each tournament win/loss records are worked out using the following formula:

  • Wins = 7.5 + (z-score of result * 3.75) // rounded to the nearest whole number, with a max of 15
  • Losses = 15 - Wins

From here I've settled on a banzuke ranking system that is arguably a bit weird, but I like it's non-subjective nature.

Scores over the last six tournaments are weighted as follows:

  • Prior tournament scores / 1
  • 2 tournaments ago / 2
  • 3 tournaments ago / 3
  • you get the idea

The sum of those scores determines ranking, ergo most recent performance is most highest rated, but consistent players/performers should generally be rewarded with a higher ranking than a newcomer who has blitzed it.

My game will likely stay as is at least for now; that said I'm open to developing a little side game as people see fit. I've developed my own sumo database that I'm using for it all, I'm not sure of how to go about actually connecting to the sumogames db (if that's possible).

I might continue to tinker with it between now and the next tournament, if anybody is interested in a 'beta' game then I suppose register your interest here and I'll direct you to the sign-up page when it's ready!

Cheers again, all.

 

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12 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

...  I barely managed Bench sumo alone this tournament, I don't know how you guys do it!  ....

 

As far as I'm concerned, I start my daily entry with Toto. As it includes all Juryo/Makunouchi bouts, once you're done with that one you have a pretty good idea of all the outcomes. Therefore, you can deal with all the other daily games and make the according entries rather fast. ;-)

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How does your game concept deal with tie scores? With few picks and potentially many players (for a simple automated game), there might be a lot of players with tied score.

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5 hours ago, Oshirokita said:

How does your game concept deal with tie scores? With few picks and potentially many players (for a simple automated game), there might be a lot of players with tied score.

There are two additional "tie-breaker picks" a player makes.

  1. Which rikishi will get the most wins ('Winner')?
  2. Which rikishi will get the most losses ('Loser')?

A quick note for both of the above, fusen wins/losses count, but actual withdrawals do not count as losses (ie. a rikishi who is 3-12 has more losses than a rikishi who is 3-3-9).

If the tournament proper ends in a tie:

  • The player who's pick for 'winner' has the most wins wins.
  • If it's still a tie, the player who's pick for 'loser' has the most losses wins.
  • If it's still still a tie, the player submitted their picks first wins.
  • If it's still still still a tie, the player of higher rank wins.

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