Kintamayama

This IS the July 2020 Basho thread!! Spoilers!!

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22 minutes ago, yohcun said:

Takakeisho nearly tumbling over during his sonkyo kinda sums up his form right now. Getting it done, but geez.

Takakeisho has a tough competition waiting for him in the second half.  Hak, Shodai, Mitakeumi, Asanoyama are all looking tough for Takakeisho at this point.  

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1 hour ago, dada78641 said:

Hakuho not looking too great against Takanosho, even though he won.

The same can be said for Asanoyama today but they both won. (Enjoyingabeer...)

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Posted (edited)

Still early days of course but good to see most of the big names still perfect after four days: Hakuho, Asanoyama, Mitakeumi Terunofuji (who I regard as a big name still). I may be wrong, but it feels like it’s been a while since we’ve seen such a strong opening 4/5 days from the sanyaku. Takakeisho, Shodai and Okinoumi are only one win back, so it’s been a good start all round really. Bodes well for the yusho race.

Edited by Eikokurai

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Kotoshoho now on 4-0 and looking impressive. I feel he has the body to become a sumogreat. About the same length as Asanoyama but still a tad lighter. 

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My favorite bout of the day, again, was Hoshoryu in his win against Wakamotoharu. Now THAT is why I watch sumo. Agree with others that Mitakeumi and Takakeisho wins were more luck than prowess. Asanoyama likewise didn’t dominate against Daiesho—who looked very good in his own right—but showed excellent ring sense to avoid stepping outside the bales. We all expect Hakuho to win going forward, but even when put on his back foot, like today, he’s the boss and he was never in any danger of losing. Would love to see a Terunofuji yusho, now that it’s being mooted in some quarters. On the other hand, an Asaonoyama yusho would be great for the sport, of course.

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I know there are people on here who have wrestled so I have a question for you please.

Terunofuji lets people get morozashi on him specifically so he can get that double arm lock hold on them that he likes, as he did with Chiyonshoma tonight, and then pull them up, in what looks like an extremely painful hold, and force them out that way. Chiyoshoma grabbed for the belt a couple of times but let it go even though it seemed he could get a really good deep grip. Instead he tried to get an arm free. So how does this work? Traditional sumo wisdom says that letting your opponent have morozashi is a really bad thing, but Terunofuji seems to turn it to his advantage. Is it only because he is so big that this works? Was it too painful for Chiyoshoma to grab the belt? Can anybody do this or do you have to be much bigger than your opponent to make it work?

Cheers in advance.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

 

So Terunofuji isn't a former Ozeki with one yusho and four jun-yusho anymore but some black horse without a career so far?? Oh, puhleeze....

There's one additional way the comparison could be understood. 

Edited by Kaninoyama

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Top Division gyoji, Kimura Hisanosuke was MIA today.  Not sure what's up with him.

As for Tate-gyoji Shikimori Inosuke, I hope he did not come down with COVID.  The fact that he is kyujo and he belongs to the stable that registered a cluster of infections is perhaps not completely coincidental.  My own conspiracy theory is that there may be a degree of コロハラ (Corona Harassment) going on, and Hakuho did not want Inosuke on the ring for his bouts for fear of getting exposed to the virus.

 

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There were some questionable calls today like Mitoryu's hairpull, also some matta's that weren't called. 

Overall this basho is looking great, i was expecting to see a terrible basho where the rikishi weren't in shape at all but it seems like the rest did them good, i'm quite happy.

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1 hour ago, Morty said:

Traditional sumo wisdom says that letting your opponent have morozashi is a really bad thing, but Terunofuji seems to turn it to his advantage. Is it only because he is so big that this works? Was it too painful for Chiyoshoma to grab the belt? Can anybody do this or do you have to be much bigger than your opponent to make it work?

It's especially effective when you're as tall as Terunofuji. All he has to do is stand up straight and that's 10cm worth of lift he gets, almost for free. His strength is just incredible too. But it being painful is I think not the main issue. Look at his footing. Chiyoshoma simply cannot exert any power in that state even if he had kept hands on the belt. I think Terunofuji just does this when he knows the difference in raw strength is large enough.

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On another note, something I noticed:

This is the Takakeisho - Endo bout. See at 4:14 how Takakeisho is concerned about his knee and briefly loses his balance. Wonder if everything is OK there? He didn't look like he was in pain though. Maybe he was just being clumsy.

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2 hours ago, since_94 said:

My favorite bout of the day, again, was Hoshoryu in his win against Wakamotoharu. Now THAT is why I watch sumo.

+1

And I just learned who he is related to. :-) No wonder I got a familiar feeling watching him.

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2 hours ago, dada78641 said:

It's especially effective when you're as tall as Terunofuji. All he has to do is stand up straight and that's 10cm worth of lift he gets, almost for free. His strength is just incredible too. But it being painful is I think not the main issue. Look at his footing. Chiyoshoma simply cannot exert any power in that state even if he had kept hands on the belt. I think Terunofuji just does this when he knows the difference in raw strength is large enough.

Was gonna comment on this too. Surely the arms are in pain when the arm-bar forces your elbows to bend in a completely different direction they’re suppose to bend.

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Posted (edited)

That Mitoryu hairpull was his other hand slipping and catching the top knot after he'd already won. Bout over - no foul.

I don't think either Hakuho or Asanoyama looked off it today, quite the contrary.

Hakuho was up against someone he hadn't met before in a regulation bout, nor has he had the opportunity to check out the new joi in keiko this time. Takanosho isn't M2 for nothing. He gave it his best shot and managed to move the yokozuna backwards, which is something he can be moderately pleased about. Hakuho reacted with the correct counter - like he would.

Asanoyama, on the other hand, was up against someone with a winning record over him, so besides all the tsuppari, harite and nodowa he had to withstand he also had to overcome that pyschological disadvantage before coming up with the correct counter - which he did.

Good sumo from both IMO.

Edited by RabidJohn
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4 hours ago, Morty said:

Chiyoshoma grabbed for the belt a couple of times but let it go even though it seemed he could get a really good deep grip. Instead he tried to get an arm free. So how does this work? Traditional sumo wisdom says that letting your opponent have morozashi is a really bad thing, but Terunofuji seems to turn it to his advantage. Is it only because he is so big that this works? Was it too painful for Chiyoshoma to grab the belt?

Simple: the only "techniques" Chiyoshoma can manage are henka and erratic arm flailing. Terunofuji could offer him morozashi all day without breaking a sweat.

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In the vein of dumb and improbable things Lance wants to know...

Both ozeki are doing reasonably well. Supposing that Asanoyama goes on to win the yusho, with Takakeisho and Hakuho finishing jun yusho...that would definitely rekindle talk of a yokozuna run for Asanoyama. But could it do the same for Takakeisho? Or does his kadoban status make that infeasible? 

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Takakeisho - Endo: I saw the social distancing monoii: looks like a program of Oldboy Jinku.

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8 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

But could it do the same for Takakeisho? Or does his kadoban status make that infeasible? 

For promotion to Yokozuna you only need two consecutive strong (i.e. yusho-ish) performances at Ozeki, so the kadoban tag shouldn't matter. It would be the first time ever, though.

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5 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

There's one additional way the comparison could be understood. 

Not *really* - Tokushoryu was dead last on the banzuke, Terunofuji isn't.

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2 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

Both ozeki are doing reasonably well. Supposing that Asanoyama goes on to win the yusho, with Takakeisho and Hakuho finishing jun yusho...that would definitely rekindle talk of a yokozuna run for Asanoyama. But could it do the same for Takakeisho? Or does his kadoban status make that infeasible?

I would argue that a junyusho followed by a yusho would technically qualify Takakeisho for Yokozuna promotion, kadoban not withstanding.  However, I could see the Judges decide to make Takakeisho wait until he gets two straight yusho victories to really prove his worth.  They sure held Takanohana back when he took the Top Division by storm IIRC.  But I am with some of the other Forum members in thinking that Takakeisho could potentially lose his Ozeki status after this tournament ends...  The four months off seems to have helped him recover somewhat, but he doesn't seem to be his old (young) self.

But here's another what if scenario:  say Takakeisho follows Tochinoshin, Takayasu, and Kotoshogiku down the banzuke, and Asanoyama wins the next two Top Division yusho and gets promoted to Yokozuna.  Could we see an "Ozeki-less" banzuke?  Is there someone already posed to make an Ozeki run?  Perhaps Mitakeumi ... but will he deliver the goods?

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I'm so on-the-fence about Mitakeumi. He posts decent numbers each tournament, but his wins tend to congregate at the beginning of the basho when his schedule is easiest. Yet, he's nabbed two yusho and seems capable of wrestling with the big boys in flashes. Is he good? Is he great? Will he overtake Goeidou's perma-sekiwake record? I strongly suspect the answer is yes to all three questions. 

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23 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

"He's more machine now, than man ... except not twisted and evil."

Kotoshogiku may think differently about the twisted and evil bit ;-)

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If Asanoyama has succeeded in rounding out his game, the rest of makuuchi needs to be very, very worried about facing him. But let's see how he finishes the basho.

I'll remind folks that back during Terunofuji's ozeki tenure and downward slide therefrom, he lost a number of matches as a direct result of letting opponents get a morozashi on him. So I'm not sure that's strategy on his part. In any case, it's nice to have him back in makuuchi and doing well.

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28 minutes ago, Dwale said:

I'll remind folks that back during Terunofuji's ozeki tenure and downward slide therefrom, he lost a number of matches as a direct result of letting opponents get a morozashi on him. So I'm not sure that's strategy on his part. In any case, it's nice to have him back in makuuchi and doing well.

But back then he was weakened from injury and illness.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

But here's another what if scenario:  say Takakeisho follows Tochinoshin, Takayasu, and Kotoshogiku down the banzuke, and Asanoyama wins the next two Top Division yusho and gets promoted to Yokozuna.  Could we see an "Ozeki-less" banzuke?  Is there someone already posed to make an Ozeki run?  Perhaps Mitakeumi ... but will he deliver the goods?

As long as Kakuryu's still in the game, I suppose they could have two yokozuna-ozeki. If Hakuho was sole remaining yokozuna, however, they would have to promote someone (I believe there's precedent for this, but others much more knowledgeable than me will have to confirm or refute it). Mitakeumi would probably be prime candidate.

---

I also remember Terunofuji's regular surrender of morozashi as a weakness in his technique. Being able to occasionally counter it with kime-dashi is no excuse.

Edited by RabidJohn
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