Haru 2020 Basho Discussion (SPOILERS)

[Amamaniac 1,340]

50 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Now only one of the two Yokozunae can win this yusho. 

Not if they both go kyujo (withdraw)! 

Edited March 21 by Amamaniac

[Kintamayama 31,945]

1 hour ago, Rainoyama said:

 With so many things on the line a monoi would have been nice... 

You mean a torinaoshi..

[Yokozuna Hattorizakura 66]

Am I the only one who saw a hairpull by hakuho? or does it only count if they pull the chonmage?

 

[Rainoyama 1,152]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

You mean a torinaoshi..

yes

[Thorbjarn 44]

2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Not if they both go kyujo (withdraw)! 

I know it's a joke and with their match as Yusho decider, both would show up 100%, so that if one of them couldn't compete, the other could pick up the fusensho. 

With that being said there has never been a Double Fusensho, has there. 

Also, my memory may fool me, but I remember reading somebody refusing either a victory (and maybe even subsequent Yusho) when he got a win, but this was back when draws and holds where commons. And I may be off.... 

[RabidJohn 789]

I'm probably partisan, but I think Asanoyama was hard done by with that mono-ii decision. Kakuryu was shinitai - no doubt in my mind.

[Amamaniac 1,340]

53 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

I'm probably partisan, but I think Asanoyama was hard done by with that mono-ii decision. Kakuryu was shinitai - no doubt in my mind.

There was a very similar bout earlier in Makuuchi action today: Myogiryu vs Enho.  Both bouts involved simultaneous belt throws.  Over on Abema TV, Wakanohana III explained the finer points of what wrestlers try to do to get the advantage in those situations.  Sadly, my limited Japanese could not follow exactly how that is done, or in Myogiryu's case, what he did to ensure victory.  

I dare say I am OK with the verdict of the final bout.  On Kakuryu's side was the fact that Asanoyama's left elbow appeared to touch outside the ring first.  And if you watch the NHK replay frame by frame, you may notice that Asanoyama's left foot lifts off the ring just a split second before Kakuryu's.

Nevertheless, perhaps a torinaoshi would have been a better decision.  

Edited March 21 by Amamaniac

[Amamaniac 1,340]

54 minutes ago, Thorbjarn said:

I know it's a joke and with their match as Yusho decider, both would show up 100%, so that if one of them couldn't compete, the other could pick up the fusensho. 

With that being said there has never been a Double Fusensho, has there. 

Indeed, it was meant as a joke.

But, there is a first time for everything...  Nevertheless, the odds are a billion to one (roughly speaking).

[Nantonoyama 181]

1 hour ago, Thorbjarn said:

 

With that being said there has never been a Double Fusensho, has there. 

Also, my memory may fool me, but I remember reading somebody refusing either a victory (and maybe even subsequent Yusho) when he got a win, but this was back when draws and holds where commons. And I may be off.... 

I remember a story in which one wrestler is injured during the bout, but a torinaoshi is called, and the opponent refuses to pick up the win against the injured guy, ending up in a de facto double fusenpai.

A double fusensho is by nature impossible.

[Eikokurai 2,057]

21 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

There was a very similar bout earlier in Makuuchi action today: Myogiryu vs Enho.  Both bouts involved simultaneous belt throws.  Over on Abema TV, Wakanohana III explained the finer points of what wrestlers try to do to get the advantage in those situations.  Sadly, my limited Japanese could not follow exactly how that is done, or in Myogiryu's case, what he did to ensure victory.  

I dare say I am OK with the verdict of the final bout.  On Kakuryu's side was the fact that Asanoyama's left elbow appeared to touch outside the ring first.  And if you watch the NHK replay frame by frame, you may notice that Asanoyama's left foot lifts off the ring just a split second before Kakuryu's.

Nevertheless, perhaps a torinaoshi would have been a better decision.  

Pretty sure torinaoshi isn’t possible if they don’t touch down together. Their choices were either rule Kakuryu shinitai and give Asanoyama the win or rule Asanoyama to have touched down first and give Kakuryu the win. 

[Gernobono 334]

13 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Pretty sure torinaoshi isn’t possible if they don’t touch down together. 

Everything is possible in a mono-ii. Watching a while I have seen quite some torinaoshi when a tate-gyoji was involved. This barrier has been broken. 

But in other situations torinaoshi also was called, when EVERYBODY but the 5 shimpan on the dohyo saw who "really" won.

[Amamaniac 1,340]

17 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

40 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Nevertheless, perhaps a torinaoshi would have been a better decision.  

Pretty sure torinaoshi isn’t possible if they don’t touch down together. Their choices were either rule Kakuryu shinitai and give Asanoyama the win or rule Asanoyama to have touched down first and give Kakuryu the win. 

Indeed, the rules state that a torinaoshi is resorted to when both wrestlers "break the ring" simultaneously or touch down simultaneously.  But these decisions are often open to interpretation (i.e., subjective).

Some people feel that when a result is that close, the only right thing to do is hold a rematch.  As you point out, the judges' hands are tied, but I suspect that there have been exceptions made in the past.  Sorry, I can't give any examples off the top of my head.

[Ryoshishokunin 177]

I mean, Enho's match a few days ago was exactly the case being discussed--Enho "lost his form" and so there was a torinaoshi.  By no means did the two touch simultanously.

[Philioyamfugi 363]

Nice KK win for Akiseyama over a 10-2  Kotoecho, Terinofuju looked back to his dominant sumo. So much drama for senshuku. Lots of guys Kotoyuki,  Geek and Kagayaki going for KK. Hoping for Hak vs. Kak for the Yusho ! Go Kakaryu !

[since_94 309]

5 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Not if they both go kyujo (withdraw)! 

Can somebody tell us the last time we had two Yokozuna going head to head for the yusho on day 15? Seems like years...

[Eikokurai 2,057]

9 minutes ago, since_94 said:

Can somebody tell us the last time we had two Yokozuna going head to head for the yusho on day 15? Seems like years...

Not that long ago. Kakuryu’s most recent yusho in July last year came down to a senshuraku showdown with Hakuho.

Kakuryu was 13-1, Hakuho 12-2. A Hakuho win would have forced a playoff between the two. Kakuryu won and took the yusho outright. It was actually the first time as a Yokozuna that he won a head-to-head with another Yokozuna for the championship.

Edited March 21 by Eikokurai

[Asapedroryu 106]

What's the reason Terunofuji vs Ichinojo match was avoided for the second basho in a row?

They are much closer in rank and score than Teru - Chyotoori.

[Thorbjarn 44]

33 minutes ago, since_94 said:

Can somebody tell us the last time we had two Yokozuna going head to head for the yusho on day 15? Seems like years...

It might have been a long while back since the two Yokozuna had exactly the same score going into senshuraku. 

[Faustonowaka 28]

51 minutes ago, Thorbjarn said:

It might have been a long while back since the two Yokozuna had exactly the same score going into senshuraku. 

Kyushu 2013

[Nantonoyama 181]

30 minutes ago, Faustonowaka said:

Kyushu 2013

Fun fact, in this tournament Terunofuji was ALSO J3e and he ALSO faced Chiyootori on senshuraku

[dada78641 583]

3 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Indeed, the rules state that a torinaoshi is resorted to when both wrestlers "break the ring" simultaneously or touch down simultaneously.  But these decisions are often open to interpretation (i.e., subjective).

That's weird to me. I feel like I've seen torinaoshi applied in situations other than an exact same touchdown. Can't think of any examples, but are you saying there's 100% no chance they'd ever have used a more loose interpretation on this?

[Nantonoyama 181]

3 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

That's weird to me. I feel like I've seen torinaoshi applied in situations other than an exact same touchdown. Can't think of any examples, but are you saying there's 100% no chance they'd ever have used a more loose interpretation on this?

Natsu 2019, day 13. Tochinoshin vs Asanoyama.

Tochinoshin was at the edge then Asanoyama fell. It was super unclear whether or not Tochinoshin's heel touched the sand beyond the tawara or not. At that time it was said that torinaoshi was not an option since the decision touch/no touch was binary and that would determine the outcome of the bout.

 

[dada78641 583]

1 minute ago, Nantonoyama said:

Natsu 2019, day 13. Tochinoshin vs Asanoyama.

Tochinoshin was at the edge then Asanoyama fell. It was super unclear whether or not Tochinoshin's heel touched the sand beyond the tawara or not. At that time it was said that torinaoshi was not an option since the decision touch/no touch was binary and that would determine the outcome of the bout.

I remember, Tochi was totally robbed here. Love Morita Hiro going "Really?"

Just to clarify, it's not that I don't believe the claim that this is how torinaoshi works, and that this is how the rules work. I believe that, and it makes sense. I'm just a little surprised by the idea that this rule has always been consistently applied, given that monoii calls are sometimes a bit dubious. Like, I'd expect there to have been dubious torinaoshi calls too.

[Gospodin 71]

4 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

I'm probably partisan, but I think Asanoyama was hard done by with that mono-ii decision. Kakuryu was shinitai - no doubt in my mind.

Dead body is called when a rikishi has absolutely no chance to turn the tables, usually when he is up in the air and on his way out of the ring, with no contact to his opponent. I cannot remember it being applied in a situation like that.

[dada78641 583]

Anyone notice the Akua shinpan bump in Juryo?

*bump*

"すいませーん"

--

Man With Two Sticks. If anyone knows what this job is called...let me know.

Kotokaze!

--

edit: I haven't been on the forum for a while, so these two images are from a couple of days ago. But I can't resist posting them.

Ishiura breaking the dohyo, and the dohyo being sprayed with water so it'll...grow back? (Last Tuesday)

The shot of Osaka castle from last Tuesday.

Edited March 21 by dada78641