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Hatsu 2020 Basho Discussion (SPOILERS)

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So does kakuryu do the normal dohyo iri with everyone else as ozeki then comes back a few mins later as yokozuna now?

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1 hour ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

So does kakuryu do the normal dohyo iri with everyone else as ozeki then comes back a few mins later as yokozuna now?

A Yokozuna-ozeki is just for banzuke purposes, everything else is unchanged. 

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4 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

It might sound unbelievable but he's as old as Endo and just one year older than Shodai - both of whom are usually perceived as from a different generation.

Takayasu started when he was just barely 15 years old, and made it to M1 when he was only 22, when Endo was still in university.  Thus Takayasu was a top-division mainstay at the time Endo entered Ozumo, so is easily thought of as a generation before.  Shodai entered Ozumo one year later than Endo (being a year younger), but had to start at the bottom, so it took him yet another year to get where Endo started.

Edited by Gurowake
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One positive, re: Takayasu. As he falls down the ranks he may yet manage to secure that elusive yusho. In 2018 he finished runner-up three times while fighting the best opposition available. From a lower rank, against technically less able opponents, he might be able to take that final step, especially with all the other chaos. If Tokushoryu can do it, no reason he can’t other than serious injury. 

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5 hours ago, Benevolance said:

I cannot see either of them retiring before the Olympics. There are only three tournaments left. If each competes in at least one of those, they can both delay retirement until the post-August festivities. And given their lackluster performances last year, they'll each both win only one of those three tournaments, like the washed-up, dried-out, incompetent has-beens they are. 

I bet Hakuho will even suffer multiple losses -- as many as two or three! -- in one of his yusho tournaments. Clearly, well past his prime. Might as well take him out back of the barn.

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4 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

One positive, re: Takayasu...
...if Tokushoryu can do it, no reason he can’t other than serious injury. 

He was fighting basically one-armed this basho. I worry the lack of resting that injury has made it serious.

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3 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

He was fighting basically one-armed this basho. I worry the lack of resting that injury has made it serious.

He was but he also showed what he’s capable of in several bouts. If he can find that form consistently enough, he could challenge for the yusho from further down the banzuke.

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Every Hatsu basho since 2016 has seen somebody win the yusho for the first time:

- Kotoshogiku 2016
- Kisenosato 2017
- Tochinoshin 2018
- Tamawashi 2019
- Tokushoryu 2020

What is another thing they have in common? All of them were in their 30's when they won. And they are all on the top 10 list. And Goeido is right up there with them. 

Oldest First Makuuchi Yusho (6BPY)

1. Kyokutenho (37 years, 8 months - 5/2012)
2. Tamawashi (34 years, 2 months - 1/2019)
3. Tokushoryu (33 years, 5 months - 1/2020)

4. Takatoriki (32 years, 5 months - 3/2000)
5. Kotoshogiku (31 years, 11 months - 1/2016)
6. Kirishima (31 years, 9 months - 1/1991)
7. Goeido (30 years, 5 months - 9/2016)
8. Tochinoshin (30 years, 2 months - 1/2018)
9. Kisenosato (30 years, 4 months - 1/2017)

10. Takanosato (29 years, 11 months - 9/1982)

Also, since Kotoshogiku's maiden yusho, there have been 9 wrestlers in the past 25 basho who have won the Emperor's cup for the first time:

- Kotoshogiku (1/2016)
- Goeido (9/2016)
- Kisenosato (1/2017)
- Tochinoshin (1/2018)
- Mitakuemi (7/2018)
- Takakeisho (11/2018)
- Tamawashi (1/2019)
- Asanoyama (5/2019)
- Tokushoryu (1/2020)

Tochinoshin, Asanoyama and Tokushoryu are all hiramaku yusho, making this 3 hiramaku yusho in 13 basho. The last time we had something that would be considered this crazy was from Nagoya 1991 to Nagoya 1992, where there was four hiramaku yusho: Kotofuji, Kotonishiki, Takahanada and Mitoizumi.

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Hiramaku yusho have always been something of a rarity but I suspect we'll be seeing more of them over the next 1-2 years.

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9 hours ago, ryafuji said:

A Yokozuna-ozeki is just for banzuke purposes, everything else is unchanged. 

Looking it up a bit, I'm increasingly confused about the suggested YokOzeki situation. The DoitsuBase lists the last few instances with Single-Ozeki-banzuke quite normally. All Yokozunae are either "Y" or "HD" (haridashi for most, high definition in case of Chiyonofuji's muscles). Only at Kyushu 81 with no Ozeki present, the Yokozunae are listed as "YO".

I don't know if this is a DB thing or if most of us here have a misconception of the banuke mechanics instead.

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On 26/01/2020 at 15:30, Koorifuu said:

You know, that's exactly what roughly one year ago I thought Takayasu would be - the man to take the spoils in the period where the old guard got too weary and the upcoming new one was still not there yet - but Tamawashi had other plans.

There was a time when I expected it to be Kisenosato... :-|

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1 hour ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Looking it up a bit, I'm increasingly confused about the suggested YokOzeki situation. The DoitsuBase lists the last few instances with Single-Ozeki-banzuke quite normally. All Yokozunae are either "Y" or "HD" (haridashi for most, high definition in case of Chiyonofuji's muscles). Only at Kyushu 81 with no Ozeki present, the Yokozunae are listed as "YO".

I don't know if this is a DB thing or if most of us here have a misconception of the banuke mechanics instead.

The YO had to be entered manually, and I guess at the time of DB data input, the old banzuke sheets where not available, to look up if the YO was listed on it as such - apparently they didn't always mark him on the banzuke

On 21/01/2020 at 08:49, Akinomaki said:

The lists of the occasions with 1 or no ozeki on the banzuke: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/大関#一人大関

Maedayama in such a time was promoted from komusubi directly to ozeki (there were plenty of yokozuna though). WikiP gives 2 cases where none of the yokozuna was put on the banzuke as yokozeki like usually this

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1 hour ago, yorikiried by fate said:

I don't know if this is a DB thing or if most of us here have a misconception of the banuke mechanics instead.

It's a display limitation, switch to "one column" mode. 

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48 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

It's a display limitation, switch to "one column" mode. 

Interesting.  Here the Y/O's were the Y1e and Y1w.  I would think that the HD yokozuna would get it.

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2 hours ago, Asojima said:

Interesting.  Here the Y/O's were the Y1e and Y1w.  I would think that the HD yokozuna would get it.

Have to be yokozuna who are listed in the main area of the sheet, because that's where they need to double as ozeki.

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Similarly to last basho, I'd like to criticize the Torikumi makers. It is a major blunder to omit the matches of the East Ozeki and the West Ozeki, as well as omitting East Sekiwake against West Sekiwake. These are crucial matches, omitting them defies the original idea of a ranking tournament. If the basho were held only for a single day, for a single bout for each Riskishi (and once upon a time, it was!) then those were to be chosen - the match between the East and West side of the same rank. What are the priorities of the Torikumi makers? (By the way, also M4e vs. M4w are omitted)

I can well understand the matches Takakeishi-Tokushoryu and also Asanayoma-Ryuden on the last day, for given the preference of a similar score. The mistakes had been made earlier, for instance in days 11 and 12, when Takakeisho was matched to Takarafuji and Tochinoshin. At that point Shodai and Tokushoyu were in the lead, and it was obvious that Goeido would not be in the Yusho race, so they could have easily did the Ozeki matchup then, leaving space for a possibly necessary Hiramaku matchup. To me it seems, they fail to foresee the situation, and then run into unsolvable Torikumi situations which force them to make choices which hurt the actual objectives. I know, Kyujo, same stable Rikishi, brothers, Hiramaku forerunners can sometimes complicate the situation a lot, but I would state they could often make a better job.

Here's what I think the objectives of the Torikumi are

  • Pair Rikishi of a similar Banzuke position to substantiate an appropriate next Banzuke - the closer the positions, the more relevant
  • Postpone the matches beetween the top ranks down to Sekiwake to the final days for greater thrill at the final days
  • As the Basho develops, prefer matches between Rikishi with a similar score even at considerable rank differences with special emphasis to the Yusho race

Understandably, these objectives are sometimes contradictory - the last one interferes with the first two. Here, some creativity and logical thinking is necessary. Also, the consideration of scenarios is helpful.

Is it still so that some Oyataka convene as the Torikumi committee, and determine the pairings of the following day just with the help of a Banzuke board and some stones to mark the Rikishi? Anyway, they should

1. Invite a mathematician to the committee for the logical thinking - the oyataka could then concentrate to tell what they want to achieve, and the mathematician could then tell them if that is possible and which Torikumi problem this would create on a later day.

2. Make the Torikumi after the results of the matches of the day, in particular in the second week. This would cut the possible scenarios greatly and simplify the complexity of the task.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Andreas21 said:

Here's what I think the objectives of the Torikumi are

  • Pair Rikishi of a similar Banzuke position to substantiate an appropriate next Banzuke - the closer the positions, the more relevant
  • Postpone the matches beetween the top ranks down to Sekiwake to the final days for greater thrill at the final days
  • As the Basho develops, prefer matches between Rikishi with a similar score even at considerable rank differences with special emphasis to the Yusho race

You are missing one very important thing, at least as far as the kyokai is concerned: spread the San'yaku bouts out across the basho, but preserve the San'yaku soroibumi.  It was obvious from about day 9 that they were saving all three same-rank pairs for the last day.  

This was not a great idea.  

The Torikumi makers often seem very short-term thinkers except for the san'yaku bout thing.  It's pretty noticeable if you play GHA that they often box themselves into a corner for matchmaking.  For instance, pairing down Takakeisho on day 14 and saving Shodai-Tokushoryuu for day 15 is an option that they didn't go for that would've achieved more of their goals, I think.  (They could've used Takakeisho/Asanoyama on day 15, even.)

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On 21/01/2020 at 21:23, Akinomaki said:

1 existing ozeki thus is always ozeki east, and the west yokozuna has to fill in as ozeki west.

what if we have only one Y? Will the ozeki still be east or will it be the yokozuna?

Kakuryu hasn't retired today - I won't get an answer to my question. I guess the yokozuna east would become yokozeki west, if ozeki is still considered the core top rank - for better balance, yokozuna east and the next rank moved to west would be logical, but why should that be the basis for the decision

Edited by Akinomaki

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21 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

One positive, re: Takayasu. As he falls down the ranks he may yet manage to secure that elusive yusho. In 2018 he finished runner-up three times while fighting the best opposition available. From a lower rank, against technically less able opponents, he might be able to take that final step, especially with all the other chaos. If Tokushoryu can do it, no reason he can’t other than serious injury. 

As long as Takayasu continues to be injured it's not going to matter where he is on the banzuke: he'll be lucky to get a kk, nevermind more. If he regains his health Takayasu should again be good enough to have more chances to win a yusho from anywhere on the banzuke. Time will tell.

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3 hours ago, ScreechingOwl said:

As long as Takayasu continues to be injured it's not going to matter where he is on the banzuke: he'll be lucky to get a kk, nevermind more. If he regains his health Takayasu should again be good enough to have more chances to win a yusho from anywhere on the banzuke. Time will tell.

He just looks so lethargic and unenthusiastic before his bouts these days. People say he’s always been this way, but my recollection of his demeanor around 2016/2017 is different. Could be injuries, age, disillusionment. Dunno, but I don’t see much fire in his eyes.

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he’s always been this way :-)

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46 minutes ago, since_94 said:

He just looks so lethargic and unenthusiastic before his bouts these days. People say he’s always been this way, but my recollection of his demeanor around 2016/2017 is different. Could be injuries, age, disillusionment. Dunno, but I don’t see much fire in his eyes.

I agree to an extent. He was always a cool customer, which was part of his appeal to me -- the relaxed, silent a$$-kicker. 

But I 100% agree that there was no fire in his eyes. His mental game seemed shot from the outset. 

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