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Hatsu 2020 Basho Discussion (SPOILERS)

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7 hours ago, Gospodin said:

BTW the best of the ozeki bunch in the naught years was Tochiazuma, in my opinion. If not for that stroke, he maybe would have been able to spoil the dominance of the Mongolians.

That's the first time I read about Tochiazuma suffering a stroke. (...or I simply can't remember...)

Edit: Ok, google first, post second. Wiki has it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tochiazuma_Daisuke

It's still news to me...

Edited by Jakusotsu

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16 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

You know, that's exactly what roughly one year ago I thought Takayasu would be - the man to take the spoils in the period where the old guard got too weary and the upcoming new one was still not there yet - but Tamawashi had other plans.

Poor Takayasu must feel doubly disappointed. Not only did he not manage to collect any of the very open yusho, he also lost his Ozeki rank, probably irrevocably looking at his current state. He's often seen as part of the old guard but actually he's still 29 so could've very well been a caretaker presiding over the change of the guard. Instead he got the short end of the stick. 

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My thoughts on this Basho:

We have been waiting for the change of the guard for such a long time and yet we were not prepared when it finally has arrived.

Goeido and Takayasu will never be Ozeki again. Tochinoshin is in fast decline. Kotoshogiku is slowly descending to Juryo. Kaisei and Ikioi barely survive in the bottom of Makuuchi. And above all, Hakuho and Kakuryu are profiting from being Yokozuna to extend a little bit their respective careers.

And while the old crumble, the young destined to substitute them seem not ready yet. Takakeisho, for instance, is excellent when he is able to pull his oshi-zumo, but if the bout goes to the belt his performance becomes average as best. Asanoyama has everything to become Yokozuna, but he needs time to become consistent enough (let's hope he is able to wait and prosper). Hokutofuji and Abi will be in Sanyaku for long, but certainly not above Sekiwake.

There are good prospects among the Maegashira, Meisei, Kiribayama, Onosho, Terutsuyoshi... let's hope they progress and fill the upper ranks in the next years.

I leave Enho apart. Step by step he keeps climbing and at the moment he has not yet found his peak. His win against Abi is something to show to non Sumo fans and probably will be in the best moments of the year.

Finally, a victory of a M17 is something to celebrate. Watching Tokushoryu clinching the basho after giving it all against Takakeisho (20 ranks above!) is another example of why I love Sumo.

I look forward to Osaka...

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9 hours ago, Gurowake said:

One of the links on the SumoDB home page is to a query for "Ozeki runs" where someone finished with at least 30 wins over the last 3 tournaments where the last one was at Sekiwake.  The times such a run ended in a promotion are highlighted.  In addition to the previously mentioned 31-win run that went 9-10-12Y,  There was:

Onokuni 9-10-12J at a time where there were 2 Yokozuna and 3 other Ozeki, promoted 09.1985

Masuiyama 8-11-12J, 4Y, 1O, 03.1980

Kaiketsu (first promotion) 7-12Y-11J, 2Y, 1O, 01.1975

Kiyokuni 10-9-12J, 2Y, 3 O, 07.1969

That was the beginning of the current kadoban system, and going back from there, there were many 30-win promotions.

We're basically in the same situation as with Kaiketsu, and the Yokozuna are performing even worse (in the Kaiketsu case, both Wajima and Kitanoumi were rather new Yokozuna just beginning their dominance), so we might expect some leniency in Ozeki promotions.  But that was also 45 years ago, so there's been complete turnover of the oyakata since then.

 

 

Thanks!
Strictly speaking, all these results are better than 11J-10-10 (they have either a yusho or an ascending order), except Kyokuni's 10-9-12J who is somewhat similar, but was 50 years ago. But after all, maybe it's not unthinkable for Asanoyama.

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7 minutes ago, Kotomiyama said:

Kaisei and Ikioi barely survive in the bottom of Makuuchi.

Add Aoiyama into the equation who imploded at a rank he used to be comfortable.

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18 minutes ago, Kotomiyama said:

Hokutofuji and Abi will be in Sanyaku for long, but certainly not above Sekiwake.

People said the same about Goeido... 

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Top 10 updates from Hatsu 2020:

- Tokushoryu's yusho at M17W ties the all time record set by Dewaminato exactly 81 years prior. Dewaminato however was not even the last ranked rikishi on the banzuke back in Hatsu 1939
- Hakuho adds one win to his total tally of career wins 1147, makuuchi wins 1053, and yokozuna wins 859
- Kotoshogiku becomes the 10th rikishi all time to make 700 career wins, and ties Takanohana II for 9th place at 701 wins. He is also the second non-yokozuna rikishi to make the all time wins list after Kaio, who was also an ozeki
- Motobayashi's win streak from pro debut ended on day 7 and he settles for sole 4th place with 24 wins, having passed Tokitenku, Kototenzan aka Earthquake, and Enho
- Kotoshogiku moves to 6th place past Akinoshima with 1291 makuuchi bouts
- Hakuho now has 1238 makuuchi bouts and 975 yokozuka bouts
- Tamawashi continues his all time consecutive career match streak, now at 1241. He needs to compete without interruption until Natsu 2020 day 8 to enter the top 10 list
- Hakuho has 94 basho in makuuchi, moving past Terao into sole 4th place. Next up is 97 basho which is shared by Takamiyama and Aminishiki. He also has 75 basho as yokozuna. As sekitori Hakuho has 96 basho, he needs to get to 98 to break into the top 10 list
- Kotoshogiku has 89 basho in makuuchi. If he manages to stay in makuuchi next basho, he will tie his current stablemaster, Kotonowaka the Elder. He also has 93 basho as sekitori, he would need to stay at least juryo through to Kyushu 2020 to get into the top 10
- Kakuryu has 35 basho at yokozuna
- Hanakaze has 203 career basho over all which extends the all time record
- Tenichi and Terunosato each have 161 career basho
- Hokutofuji now has 7 kinboshi. 2 more will get him into the top 10 for most kinboshi
- Kakuryu "enters" the top 10 list for most kinboshi losses with 31, tying Tochinishiki and Kagamisato
- Terunofuji has done what most of us doubted and has climbed back into juryo. His record stands at 5th place being repromoted from jonidan 48 west
- Tokushoryu enters the oldest first makuuchi yusho list at 33 years and 5 months, making him the 3rd oldest winner, and also the oldest Japanese born winner
- He is also the 4th oldest first sansho winner (thanks @Yubinhaad!)
- Kotoshogiku has completed his 18th post ozeki basho, putting him in sole 7th place. Above him is Kirishima and Wakahaguro at 20
- Terunofuji has completed his 14th post ozeki basho. Above him is Daiju at 17 basho

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1 hour ago, dingo said:

People said the same about Goeido... 

Agree. In the current landscape, I give both at least an outside shot of eventually reaching Ozeki. 

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1 hour ago, dingo said:

People said the same about Goeido... 

I wish they prove me wrong. I really like both ;-)

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2 hours ago, Kotomiyama said:

Hokutofuji and Abi will be in Sanyaku for long, but certainly not above Sekiwake.

I should start by saying I agree with your post in entirety but for including Hokutofuji in this statement, I think he has what it takes to go higher than sekiwake. 

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39 minutes ago, BroomeSumo said:

I can't translate the article is there any further information TIA

I don't have time to do a full translation, but here's the short version:

- According to his oyakata, Goeido will decide his future by the banzuke-making committee meeting on 29 Jan. 

- On the 12th day of the basho, after his loss of Ozeki rank was decided, Goeido said that's he still has strength to go on. 

- However his disposition has changed slightly and on 27th he asked to give him a day or two to decide. 

- If I decide to retire, I will let everyone know. If there's no announcement the that means I'll continue, Goeido said. 

- After the 10th loss he said that he used all the strength he had, but cannot yet answer any questions about his future. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, dingo said:

I don't have time to do a full translation, but here's the short version:

- According to his oyakata, Goeido will decide his future by the banzuke-making committee meeting on 29 Jan. 

- On the 12th day of the basho, after his loss of Ozeki rank was decided, Goeido said that's he still has strength to go on. 

- However his disposition has changed slightly and on 27th he asked to give him a day or two to decide. 

- If I decide to retire, I will let everyone know. If there's no announcement the that means I'll continue, Goeido said. 

- After the 10th loss he said that he used all the strength he had, but cannot yet answer any questions about his future. 

 

 

He has decided to retire ...

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On 24/01/2020 at 17:49, Eikokurai said:

What you have to remember about Tokushoryu is that everyone is higher than him on the banzuke. He’s the lowest-ranked guy in the division, so his whole schedule is against better rikishi.

He’s the opposite of a Yokozuna, who always get easy schedules against guys ranked lower than them. :-)

And, of course, they gave him Takakeisho on the final day, and hd proved fully up to the challenge. Even though he's not on my favorite rikishi list, I still have to respect the amazing basho Tokushoryu had.

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The other Megashira 17 - Kiribayama (quietly?) wins his final 8 matches to go 11-4 in his opening Makuuchi performance. This would be extraordinary for a M-17, if the other M-17 hadn't thrown a yusho. Looks like Hakuho and Kakuryu may both have heya-mates who are benefiting from practicing with top wrestlers. Kiribayama definitely earned his special prize, and bears watching in Osaka< IMO.

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I reckon Kakuryu will be next to retire and despite what he says about being around for the Olympics, Hakuho won't be far behind.  He can't keep on withdrawing indefinitely.

 

Swami

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2 hours ago, Dapeng said:

He has decided to retire ...

Yep. Gonna be awfully strange not having him, he's been a fixture as long as I've been watching regular coverage. Fare thee well, Goeido. 

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21 minutes ago, Swami said:

I reckon Kakuryu will be next to retire and despite what he says about being around for the Olympics, Hakuho won't be far behind.  He can't keep on withdrawing indefinitely.

 

Swami

If Kisenosato can keep withdrawing indefinitely, so can Hakuho. His injuries are not nearly as severe as Kisenosato's,, so I don't expect that to happen.  He hopefully will return soon. And unless he has a really debilitating injury, he definitely will be around for the Olympics. I think that he will be good for one and possibly two more yushos before he decides to retire.

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I cannot see either of them retiring before the Olympics. There are only three tournaments left. If each competes in at least one of those, they can both delay retirement until the post-August festivities. And given their lackluster performances last year, they'll each both win only one of those three tournaments, like the washed-up, dried-out, incompetent has-beens they are. 

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13 hours ago, dingo said:

Poor Takayasu must feel doubly disappointed. Not only did he not manage to collect any of the very open yusho, he also lost his Ozeki rank, probably irrevocably looking at his current state. He's often seen as part of the old guard but actually he's still 29 so could've very well been a caretaker presiding over the change of the guard. Instead he got the short end of the stick. 

Indeed.

It might sound unbelievable but he's as old as Endo and just one year older than Shodai - both of whom are usually perceived as from a different generation.

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1 hour ago, Koorifuu said:

Indeed.

It might sound unbelievable but he's as old as Endo and just one year older than Shodai - both of whom are usually perceived as from a different generation.

I guess he just achieved more faster than the some of the perennial hopefuls. Also something in his face and demeanour makes him seem a bit older than Endo or Shodai.

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1 hour ago, Benevolance said:

I cannot see either of them retiring before the Olympics. There are only three tournaments left. If each competes in at least one of those, they can both delay retirement until the post-August festivities. And given their lackluster performances last year, they'll each both win only one of those three tournaments, like the washed-up, dried-out, incompetent has-beens they are. 

I suspect you are only tongue-in-cheek trolling here, but I have to point out that the two allegedly washed-up yokozuna still accounted for half of last year's yushos, and half of each year before that going back a few years. Hakuho may indeed be past his prime, but he looked pretty good in November when he snagged #43 (even if there were a couple of fortunate dances on the tawara), and healthy can give any living rikishi a run for his money. 

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