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Ishiura keiko violence - the next scandal

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24 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

 It was also mentioned that the Kyushu dohyo was "softer" than the KKan as it was made from softer materials.

Has Kyushu clay always been softer or did this apply only to the most recent basho? I assumed that the materials for the dohyo were standardized so that they would be the same for all honbashos. I guess my assumption was wrong.

Edited by sekitori

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3 minutes ago, sekitori said:

Has Kyushu clay always been softer or did this apply only to the most recent basho? I assumed that the materials for the dohyo were standardized so that they would be the same for all honbashos. I guess my assumption was wrong.

I thought so too..

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10 minutes ago, sekitori said:

Has Kyushu clay always been softer or did this apply only to the most recent basho? I assumed that the materials for the dohyo were standardized so that they would be the same for all honbashos. I guess my assumption was wrong.

It has long been known and reported here that the dohyos for the Kyushu basho, particularly, and the Nagoya basho are slipperier than the KK dohyo due to differences in the clays and sands use to construct them.  Nothing new to see here.

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18 minutes ago, sekitori said:

Has Kyushu clay always been softer or did this apply only to the most recent basho? I assumed that the materials for the dohyo were standardized so that they would be the same for all honbashos. I guess my assumption was wrong.

 

15 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I thought so too..

 

Edited by Benihana

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20 minutes ago, Benihana said:

 

 

OK, my bad. The floor surrounding the dohyo is softer in Kyushu. 九州場所の土俵は全6場所のうちでもっとも柔らかい素材が敷かれており、国技館よりも幅が広い

Edited by Kintamayama

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2 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

ex-Miyabiyama begs to differ..

I edited out my question if this standardization already is in effect. Maybe it's still the old soil, maybe it's the climate conditions, call me John Snow.

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Just now, Benihana said:

I edited out my question if this standardization already is in effect. Maybe it's still the old soil, maybe it's the climate conditions, call me John Snow.

Well, you were too quick- I was wrong, you were right, as you can see by my edited post.  Too quick..

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5 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Well, you were too quick- I was wrong, you were right, as you can see by my edited post.  Too quick..

I wouldn't subscribe that as long as we're not sure about the standard soil.

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This may just be another stick being used by some members of the NSK to eliminate the Kyushu basho. Kyushu is a logistical and financial nightmare for the NSK.

Edited by Asojima

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1 hour ago, Asojima said:

This may just be another stick being used by some members of the NSK to eliminate the Kyushu basho. Kyushu is a logistical and financial nightmare for the NSK.

I think one oyakata mentioning this in passing (in a kind way..) doesn't make a conspiracy.

Yet.

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7 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

I think one oyakata mentioning this in passing (in a kind way..) doesn't make a conspiracy.

Yet.

The elimination/restructuring of the regional bashos has been an ongoing discussion within the NSK for several years.  I wouldn't classify it as a conspiracy.

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45 minutes ago, Asojima said:

The elimination/restructuring of the regional bashos has been an ongoing discussion within the NSK for several years.  I wouldn't classify it as a conspiracy.

I must say that I have been translating since 1998 and have never come across anything concrete written about anyone discussing this. We have discussed this at length, but i haven't seen anything concrete in writing. This of course doesn't mean it isn't true. You mentioned a stick, so I said it hardly counts as a twig in this context.

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17 hours ago, robnplunder said:

If the report is correct, Ishiura went a bit too far.   Hitting someone at once in practice?  Sure it happens.  Twice in a row against the same guy?  It may happen once in a while.  Three in a row against the same guy?  That shouldn't happen by a well trained professional.  

I agree he shouldn’t have done it. He should be professional enough to recognize his frustration and either channel it into something productive or just walk away. Therefore, I agree with a punishment. Unless this is a habitual thing that is just now coming to light, in which case I’m fine with whatever punishment they mete out.

Edited by Churaumi
English is still hard, yo.
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Media begin to complain that this hasn't been made into a proper scandal yet, claiming that the new regulations demand strong reactions. http://www.zakzak.co.jp/spo/news/200106/spn2001060006-n1.html

Section 4 of article 4 of the Dec. 2018 violence prohibition regulations includes as inexcusable violence during keiko also fist fights and other acts from article 1 of the shimpan regulations forbidden moves part, which would lead to a hansoku loss, if they are intentionally used as violence - the complaining media interpret the last part to their liking

(4) 稽古中において握り拳で殴るなど、審判規則禁じ手反則第1条各号に掲げる禁じ手を故意に暴力として用いる行為

The regulations list the penalties in article 5.

https://www.jiji.com/jc/v4?id=sm-bouryokukitei201812210001

Edit: the regulations go on for 2 more pages

Edited by Akinomaki
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On 05/01/2020 at 11:54, Kintamayama said:

Anyone equating this to  a rikishi beating up on his tsukebito or any other violent action outside of the ring, has no idea what he is talking about, regardless of the heavy English accent. If a keiko session getting out of hand requires punishment or seeing into, I'm switching to ballet. Unbelievable we are even having this conversation. Even more unbelievable that the Kyokai is. Might as well lower the dohyo and make them wear helmets while we're at it.

Well, it's a fine line to tread when a sekitori and a toriteki come to blows because a training match was taken past the ring bell by a sore loser sekitori. Given the highly hierarchical relationship in play there (even if not an actual tsukebito), it's not difficult to construe that as an attempt to bully by different means. Kudos to Hokaho for not just having taken it, though I suppose it helps that he's been there for twice as long as Ishiura, his lower ranking status notwithstanding.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Sorry about the off-topic question: I have long wondered about this and thought about asking this question, so I'll use this chance to ask it. Has this (rikishi starting a fistfight after a match ends) happened during an actual honbasho, on the dohyo in plain view? I guess the closest thing I have ever seen was Hakuho's angry reaction and stare off against Asashoryu, but I'm thinking about a proper slug/slapfest. Oh wait, I just remembered Chiyotaikai's off-the-dohyo confrontation with Roho... but I'm still looking for a post match streetfight on/near the dohyo.

And while we are at it, I have also wondered about a rikishi's mawashi coming off completely during a honbasho match, leading to his losing the match. The closest thing that I have seen on this topic was about a lower division rikishi's mawashi coming off (I believe it was in the early 2000s, but I can't remember). 

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11 minutes ago, Adil said:

Oh wait, I just remembered Chiyotaikai's off-the-dohyo confrontation with Roho...

Yeah, that was fun ^^

 

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On 06/01/2020 at 14:21, Akinomaki said:

The NSK announced today that Hakkaku handed the matter to the compliance committee, to investigate the incident and propose punishment.

Ishiura and Hokaho have been questioned by the compliance bunch, the riji-kai will decide about the punishment they'll propose, for Ishiura suspension or going kyujo on his own are some possibilities. He already has withdrawn today from the Meiji shrine dohyo-iri attendant duties. http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202001070000836.html

Edited by Akinomaki
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There was also this, although it wasn't the result of a match between the two rikishi involved:

 

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12 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Well, it's a fine line to tread when a sekitori and a toriteki come to blows because a training match was taken past the ring bell by a sore loser sekitori. Given the highly hierarchical relationship in play there (even if not an actual tsukebito), it's not difficult to construe that as an attempt to bully by different means. Kudos to Hokaho for not just having taken it, though I suppose it helps that he's been there for twice as long as Ishiura, his lower ranking status notwithstanding.

I'm pretty sure this happens all the time without it getting out. I'm also pretty sure Hakuhou is pissed as hell at Miyagino for "telling" on his guy, the "new sumo order" notwithstanding.

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2 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

I'm pretty sure this happens all the time without it getting out.

Maybe, but should it? Something like this definitely straddles the line between a good ol' testosterone-fueled dust-up that everybody laughs about an hour later, and a suspicion-arousing attempt to physically remind a lower-status stable member to not get too uppity because somebody else is calling the shots around there (or at least thinks he's calling the shots, erroneously as Ishiura is currently finding out). Would be a much different situation if it happened between two rikishi of more equal standing, IMHO.

Ishiura might not be a bully, but he engaged in behaviour there that wouldn't be out of place for one. And that was just an all-around bad idea in the current climate. Shouldn't be punished for the violence aspect, but for being too dumb to be sekitori in the year 2020.

I'd like a nice one-week suspension for the basho. He could channel his obviously abundant fighting spirit into trying to finish kachikoshi from 0-0-7.

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I think a significant fine would be more appropriate. Along with some additional mandatory training and perhaps being made to clean the toilets in the Ryōgoku Kokugikan on the day after the Basho.

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40 minutes ago, Morningstar said:

I think a significant fine would be more appropriate. Along with some additional mandatory training and perhaps being made to clean the toilets in the Ryōgoku Kokugikan on the day after the Basho.

Or how about during it? 

This actually happened my last trip to the Kokugikan:

During the shimpan change there was predictably a long line for the toilets. One older man in line who likely had a few too many couldn't wait anymore, so he promptly did his business right against the wall and onto the floor in front of everyone. 

In predictable Japanese fashion, no one even batted an eye. 

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10 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Maybe, but should it? Something like this definitely straddles the line between a good ol' testosterone-fueled dust-up that everybody laughs about an hour later, and a suspicion-arousing attempt to physically remind a lower-status stable member to not get too uppity because somebody else is calling the shots around there (or at least thinks he's calling the shots, erroneously as Ishiura is currently finding out). Would be a much different situation if it happened between two rikishi of more equal standing, IMHO.

Ishiura might not be a bully, but he engaged in behaviour there that wouldn't be out of place for one. And that was just an all-around bad idea in the current climate. Shouldn't be punished for the violence aspect, but for being too dumb to be sekitori in the year 2020.

I'd like a nice one-week suspension for the basho. He could channel his obviously abundant fighting spirit into trying to finish kachikoshi from 0-0-7.

I can safely say this kind of behavior was the basis of sumo for many years. No less. Things are changing incredibly fast (not only in sumo) regarding what is acceptable and what is not. I'm not condoning it, but as someone who grew up watching sumo knowing that this is an inherent part of it, I still think this should be dealt with inside the heya. It happened during keiko after all so there's a fine line there. I agree regarding the need to show they are doing something, and that Ishiura should exercise restraint as a sekitori in 2020, but still, I would issue a warning..

Edited by Kintamayama
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