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2019 Kyushu Basho Discussion (spoiler alert)

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10 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

We're talking about people's livelihoods here.

Life is cruel everywhere. I understand Sumo as one of the last refuge of high Symbolism. They choose this way, do not try to take their glory out. One you introudce one change, this is the basis for others and Glory Sumo will be turned into some kind of westerm decadence. In life things happend (to everyone) and these can be quite negative, but to accept them is a sign of a superior concept of existence.

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6 minutes ago, Asojima said:

A livelihood that they have freely chosen which, like most other livelihoods, is subject to disruption or cancellation. 

Simplemente perfecto. Nothing to add to what you have said. That is it. That is the point.

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1 hour ago, Gabriel said:

No, I disagree. Sumo is perfect as it is. Different to anything else. NO changes, please.

Sumo is far from perfect.   I bear and grin it only b/c most rikishi does their best.

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I remember there being a pretty spirited kosho debate thread around the time of Ura’s injuries...might be a good read if you’re new to these parts.

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10 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

When a gyoji decides to crackdown on false starts, it really throws off the the flow of a bout.  Wrestlers get self-conscious and lose focus on the bout itself.  After two matta stoppages, it looked to me that Tsurigisho expected a third call, but Konosuke let the bout continue.  Tsurigisho was clearly at a disadvantage.

I'm just happy Konosuke managed to speed up the painfully slow Tsurugisho at the tachiai. The guy takes ages to crouch and get ready, breaking the concentration of the other rikishi. He really is annoying. Another slow one is Meisei. Get on with it already!

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4 hours ago, ryafuji said:

And where will he be on the banzuke when he comes back? I think it's time to seriously consider some sort of protected ranking system.

Perhaps granting Ms15TD to any Makunouchi rikishi dropping lower by continous absence might be a good idea.

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Kotoshogiku seems to be really fading away this basho. No forward going power to speak of and gets pushed back very easily. Since that is all that his sumo consists of, it's unfortunately hard to see a long future for his career. He might be able to eke out a few more basho at the bottom of Makuuchi, but I'm afraid it's not gonna be more than that. Wonder if he would be willing to continue in Juryo? Otherwise we may see him intai next year... 

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7 minutes ago, dingo said:

Kotoshogiku seems to be really fading away this basho. No forward going power to speak of and gets pushed back very easily. Since that is all that his sumo consists of, it's unfortunately hard to see a long future for his career. He might be able to eke out a few more basho at the bottom of Makuuchi, but I'm afraid it's not gonna be more than that. Wonder if he would be willing to continue in Juryo? Otherwise we may see him intai next year... 

He's 35 years old.  His time has come.

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7 hours ago, Rainoyama said:

That Hakuho harite... pretty sure that alone won him the match, Asanoyama just buckled down after he was hit in the face.

It did not seem that way to me. More of a distraction slap, then Hakuho went immediately for a lower grip with the right hand. I know he's been chastised for this move, as a Yokozuna, but in the past we've seen him almost knock the opposing wrestler out with his awesome harite, so maybe I'm underestimating its effect. Didn't look like Asanoyama even flinched much, but when Hakuho went under both his arms, he got Asanoyama off balance and had the quick sukuinage.

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Maybe Tsurugisho and Sadanoumi aren´t the most adept at handling harite. But looking at their reactions after their bouts, Shohozan seems to have added some horsepower to his slaps.

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I can't take out of my mind the image of Tomokaze's knee. Sad for the boy, but a stark reminder of how difficult is to have a long and successful career in Sumo.

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Hate to dwell on the Konosuke matta issue, but I just watched the NHK broadcast, and noticed a couple of interesting things.  When Konosuke called the second matta, NHK did a slow motion replay of the tachiai, and it seemed pretty clear to me that Tsurigisho did get both fists down on the dohyo before he charged.  Nevertheless, Konosuke stopped the bout, and glared disapprovingly at Tsurigisho.  To his credit, the wrestler did not take issue with the unnecessary chastisement.

I now am working with a whole new hypothesis, albeit facetious: every time a gyoji calls a matta, NHK zooms in on the gyoji in question.  Essentially, by calling a matta, a gyoji gets more "face time" on TV.  (Gyoji...)

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2 hours ago, dingo said:

Kotoshogiku seems to be really fading away this basho. No forward going power to speak of and gets pushed back very easily. Since that is all that his sumo consists of, it's unfortunately hard to see a long future for his career. He might be able to eke out a few more basho at the bottom of Makuuchi, but I'm afraid it's not gonna be more than that. Wonder if he would be willing to continue in Juryo? Otherwise we may see him intai next year... 

He still has a good initial forward burst at tachi-ai. But if he isn't able to drive is opponent out with that first burst, he completely runs out of steam and doesn't have the second burst that he used to have. It's sad to seem him fade, but I've become even more of a fan of his for the way he continues to soldier on and do his best even after having lost his Ozeki rank. 

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7 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

He still has a good initial forward burst at tachi-ai. But if he isn't able to drive is opponent out with that first burst, he completely runs out of steam and doesn't have the second burst that he used to have. It's sad to seem him fade, but I've become even more of a fan of his for the way he continues to soldier on and do his best even after having lost his Ozeki rank. 

The key to his humpty-dumpty was his ability to come in low and fast and then bury his face in his opponents chest.  He has lost some of his leg strength and is no longer getting his face buried.  This leaves him at arm's length and vulnerable.

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He's outlasted Kisenosato, though, which is something I never expected would happen. 

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6 hours ago, Gabriel said:

Life is cruel everywhere. I understand Sumo as one of the last refuge of high Symbolism. They choose this way, do not try to take their glory out. One you introudce one change, this is the basis for others and Glory Sumo will be turned into some kind of westerm decadence. In life things happend (to everyone) and these can be quite negative, but to accept them is a sign of a superior concept of existence.

And yet it was not always like that...

I fully agree with you on not changing the traditions of sumo to fit in with the nonsense of modern Western liberalism, but this particular problem is not something that was dealt with the same way since back in the mists of time. It can therefore be dealt with more pragmatically.

The kosho system was good but was inevitably abused. My personal view is that if two doctors say (and sign a document) that an injury was sustained in the ring and rest is essential, then a limited kosho system should come into effect. Say, he can keep his rank for one basho, and then is demoted, with demotions perhaps a little less harsh than those for with straight 0-15s. Maybe the equivalent of 4-11 or something. To deal with malingerers, no rikishi can make the decision by themselves, obviously.

Something along those lines anyway.

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6 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

Something along those lines anyway.

No medical certificate required.  The first all-kyujo basho would be treated as a 0-15/0-7 record for rank purposes.  The second and any additional consecutive all-kyujos would be treated as 5-10/2-5.  No kosho-like grace allowed to keep Ozekis from going kadoban on a zenpai basho.  The first hit should discourage malingerers, and the subsequent hits would ease the precipitous drop for rehab.

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5 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Perhaps granting Ms15TD to any Makunouchi rikishi dropping lower by continous absence might be a good idea.

Oh, that’s a great idea. So simple I don’t know why it hasn’t come up before (unless it has and I just missed it). It makes perfect sense to treat a fallen makuuchi rikishi like a makushita tsukedashi upon return from a lengthy absence.

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I'm more and more impressed by Kotonowaka Jr. He's calm, determined, and has a great sense of balance. Might not be the x-next Ozeki, but Maegashira material for sure.

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1 minute ago, Jakusotsu said:

I'm more and more impressed by Kotonowaka Jr. He's calm, determined, and has a great sense of balance. Might not be the x-next Ozeki, but Maegashira material for sure.

Same, a lot of poise and patience for a 21 year old.

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I think a rule allowing a makunouchi rikishi who is absent for a long period due to injury to re-enter at mid-makushita rank would be quite fair. An injured juryo rikishi would be allowed re-enter at no lower than upper sandanme.

What happened to Ura was completely unfair and totally undeserved. He was at M4 when he was badly injured.  He was demoted to low sandanme where he rose to makushita 23 when he was injured again. He now has to start at jonidan 106. Faced with such a situation, I'm sure many rikishis would have retired. Such determination is why I'm a huge Ura fan. I think his previous high makunouchi rank should have been taken into account  when his subsequent rankings were considered. Something like this should never be allowed to happen and is an excellent example (among others) showing that sumo is far, far from perfect.

Edited by sekitori
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After his 4th straight win, Wakatakakage is limping badly back to the shitaku-beya. Now he's being wheeled away. Hope he's OK, but that doesn't look good at all. 

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5 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Oh, that’s a great idea. So simple I don’t know why it hasn’t come up before (unless it has and I just missed it). It makes perfect sense to treat a fallen makuuchi rikishi like a makushita tsukedashi upon return from a lengthy absence.

Pretty sure the general idea of letting absent rikishi fall through the banzuke normally but re-inserting them at a higher rank on return has been discussed a number of times around here.

I'm personally of the opinion that, while it has some drawbacks, it would be the only sensible way of instituting a protected rank system that acknowledges the elephant in the room, namely that rank == salary in ozumo. Things like Asojima's reduced demotions on subsequent absences are nice in theory, but run headlong into the problem that such an absent rikishi is effectively taking somebody else's earning opportunities away, without doing anything to deserve it in contrast to a rikishi who scores a "real" 5-10.

Giving an injury returnee a boost for his way back up the rankings is one thing, but anything that provides benefits to him while he's not actually competing is just not going to happen again after the way the kosho system played out at the end.

Edited by Asashosakari

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6 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Pretty sure the general idea of letting absent rikishi fall through the banzuke normally but re-inserting them at a higher rank on return has been discussed a number of times around here.

Yes, I’m sure it has. Those sorts of discussions tend to run on so I don’t always read every post when they come up. I did mean specifically granting them Makushita tsukedashi status and making that an official re-entry point. I like the concrete-ness of that idea.

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6 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Yes, I’m sure it has. Those sorts of discussions tend to run on so I don’t always read every post when they come up. I did mean specifically granting them Makushita tsukedashi status and making that an official re-entry point. I like the concrete-ness of that idea.

Well I'm pretty sure such specific re-entry points have been raised before, too, in various guises (bottom juryo, makushita 15, bottom makushita to name the most popular ones). I don't think the notion of outright treating it as the same thing as "makushita tsukedashi" is all that sensible, though.

Edited by Asashosakari

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