2019 Kyushu Basho Discussion (spoiler alert)

[Amamaniac 1,508]

18 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

I think he needs a refreshing course or retire.

Careful what you wish for.  I said a similar thing about Onomatsu oyakata as chief judge in the Asanoyama v. Tochinoshin monoii fiasco, and now that he did in fact retire, I feel bad.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Amamaniac

[dingo 479]

17 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Clearly, Konosuke was confused and made a wrong call on the first matta. I think he needs a refreshing course or retire.

Retirement would be way too harsh. He might've not seen this kind of tachiai in 20 years and was just trying his best to make something out of the situation. Everyone makes mistakes. 

[since_94 371]

7 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Judging past events based on the highlight-worthy aspects of them that people actually care to remember later is always iffy. The 1990s had their fair share of rikishi who bored the audience to tears and whose careers were forgotten the moment they retired.

Point taken. My impression has undeniably been clouded by watching a lot of Chiyonofuji highlights and ALL of the Hakuho vs. Asashoryu bouts lately. Even so, this basho in particular I find myself getting excited when any two rikishi grab on for some good old fashioned yotsu-zumo. I used to get bored of belt sumo, frankly , but now I look forward to it because it seems like it’s becoming more of an anomaly. 

Part of the problem is there’s nobody around to consistently give Hakuho a run for the money. Only his lingering injuries have the potential to put the outcome of tournaments in serious doubt. What I really lament, I suppose, is the lack of a classic rivalry at the top that would make all the mediocrity fade into the background and be instantly forgotten.

[Jakusotsu 3,725]

1 hour ago, Kaioshoryu said:

This is a good thing. He is the slowest rikishi I've ever seen at the tachiai.

It's one thing to spur on the slackers like Konosuke does (which still tends to annoy me), but stopping a perfect tachiai like Tsurugisho's and Chiyomaru's by calling matta is ridiculous, to say the least.

[Michishige 53]

Looking down at Juryo, Gagamaru is now make-koshi. Unless he miraculously runs the table, I suspect he'll be on his way to retirement soon...if not this basho, than after the next basho when he fails to get back to Juryo from upper Makushita. Maybe I'm being premature, but I'll miss him. I have found him entertaining over the years. 

[Kaminariyuki 258]

53 minutes ago, since_94 said:

Part of the problem is there’s nobody around to consistently give Hakuho a run for the money. Only his lingering injuries have the potential to put the outcome of tournaments in serious doubt. What I really lament, I suppose, is the lack of a classic rivalry at the top that would make all the mediocrity fade into the background and be instantly forgotten.

While I am not saying the penalty was wrong, I suggest that tossing Harumafuji did not help on this count, although like Kakuryu, Hakuho and then, Kisenosato, he was aging. He was still definitely a force to be reckoned with at the top of the banzuke.

[Kintamayama 33,807]

1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

Clearly, Konosuke was confused and made a wrong call on the first matta. I think he needs a refreshing course or retire.

Clearly? Really?   If it were an issue, the papers would have been full of it. It wasn't and they weren't. As usual, we are the ones full of it. It was a rarity and as such, treated as a rarity, with varied opinions on how Kounosuke handled it. Nothing was clear. Everyone was confused. You're sending him out to pasture for that? Come on, man.

[Amamaniac 1,508]

The bout between Takakeisho and Hokutofuji was definitely an all out, full contact affair, with Takakeisho's bloody nose being prime evidence.  

I was happy to see that Takakeisho finally brought back his sideways swipe, something that had been missing in the first half of this tournament.  The way he set it up, however, may not be something he will want to do on a regular basis.  

The two Saitama Sakai alums really locked horns.  When there was a brief separation, the shorter Takakeisho decided to deliver a vicious left hand slap, which I felt on the other side of the planet.  Hokutofuji was understandably taken aback, and it appeared that he attempted a retaliatory headbutt.  However, that proved to be a bad decision, since pushing forward with the headbutt left him vulnerable to the deflection or swipe that Takakeisho had used so effectively in the past.  ... And fly off the ring Hokutofuji did.

That's how I saw it go down, anyway.

[since_94 371]

1 hour ago, Kaminariyuki said:

While I am not saying the penalty was wrong, I suggest that tossing Harumafuji did not help on this count, although like Kakuryu, Hakuho and then, Kisenosato, he was aging. He was still definitely a force to be reckoned with at the top of the banzuke.

Absolutely agree. His forced retirement, followed not long thereafter by Kisenosato's,  obviously left a huge hole at the top. Now, with all the injuries taking a huge toll on the sanyaku, as well as age catching up to a lot of wily veterans, there's just been a huge drop off in the quality of sumo we're seeing overall. Of course, there are always welcome exceptions to this generalization. 

I also can't help wondering if Kakuru and Hakuho haven't worked out a kind of understanding that they will basically platoon in the Yokozuna role until after the 2020 Olympics or until a successor emerges and is promoted or such promotion is imminent. They're both 34, both have chronic injuries, while both appreciate it's incumbent on them to represent the rank in each tournament for the integrity of the sport. Taking turn competing lets them stretch it out by sharing the burden. Not tring to start any conspiracy theories here. Just been thinking about it in light of all the Y kyujo in recent years.

[Houmanumi 246]

48 minutes ago, since_94 said:

I also can't help wondering if Kakuru and Hakuho haven't worked out a kind of understanding that they will basically platoon in the Yokozuna role until after the 2020 Olympics or until a successor emerges and is promoted or such promotion is imminent. They're both 34, both have chronic injuries, while both appreciate it's incumbent on them to represent the rank in each tournament for the integrity of the sport. Taking turn competing lets them stretch it out by sharing the burden. Not tring to start any conspiracy theories here. Just been thinking about it in light of all the Y kyujo in recent years.

It's a fun thought, but there have been several no-Yokozuna tournaments. As recently as last tournament, in fact -- granted Kakuryu pulled out midway.

[WAKATAKE 1,880]

4 hours ago, since_94 said:

Absolutely agree. His forced retirement, followed not long thereafter by Kisenosato's,  obviously left a huge hole at the top. Now, with all the injuries taking a huge toll on the sanyaku, as well as age catching up to a lot of wily veterans, there's just been a huge drop off in the quality of sumo we're seeing overall. Of course, there are always welcome exceptions to this generalization. 

I also can't help wondering if Kakuru and Hakuho haven't worked out a kind of understanding that they will basically platoon in the Yokozuna role until after the 2020 Olympics or until a successor emerges and is promoted or such promotion is imminent. They're both 34, both have chronic injuries, while both appreciate it's incumbent on them to represent the rank in each tournament for the integrity of the sport. Taking turn competing lets them stretch it out by sharing the burden. Not tring to start any conspiracy theories here. Just been thinking about it in light of all the Y kyujo in recent years.

Harumafuji was not forced out, the NSK had not completed their investigation and even at that point likely forcing HMF out was not being considered at the time. 

[ScreechingOwl 332]

15 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Harumafuji was not forced out, the NSK had not completed their investigation and even at that point likely forcing HMF out was not being considered at the time. 

Harumafuji didn't retire for his health: he would almost certainly have been forced to retire and acted honorably in sparing the NSK that decision. Both Hakuho and Kakuryu who were merely present at the incident were strongly censured and fined by the NSK. Harumafuji's resignation was voluntary in the same way President Nixon's was.

[since_94 371]

24 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

Harumafuji was not forced out, the NSK had not completed their investigation and even at that point likely forcing HMF out was not being considered at the time. 

Forced by circumstance, not by the Association. As was Kisenosato.

[since_94 371]

3 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

It's a fun thought, but there have been several no-Yokozuna tournaments. As recently as last tournament, in fact -- granted Kakuryu pulled out midway.

Before Akebono was promoted there was a gap when there was no Yokozuna, so of course it can happen.

[Asashosakari 14,934]

7 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

It's one thing to spur on the slackers like Konosuke does (which still tends to annoy me), but stopping a perfect tachiai like Tsurugisho's and Chiyomaru's by calling matta is ridiculous, to say the least.

I wonder if any maegashira regulars ever try to avoid finishing with records that would see them promoted/demoted somewhere that they're likely to see a lot of a particularly annoying gyoji. Probably not but Tsurugisho may be starting to think about it right now... (Although he might have to avoid more than just one the way things have been going.)

Edited November 19, 2019 by Asashosakari

[Tsuchinoninjin 672]

"Konosuke-joi"

[Akinomaki 28,758]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

I wonder if any maegashira regulars ever try to avoid finishing with records that would see them promoted/demoted somewhere that they're likely to see a lot of a particularly annoying gyoji. Probably not but Tsurugisho may be starting to think about it right now... (Although he might have to avoid more than just one the way things have been going.)

I think Enho will now be especially fired up to rise above the Konosuke hell

Edited November 19, 2019 by Akinomaki

[cyclonicleo 11]

9 hours ago, Michishige said:

Looking down at Juryo, Gagamaru is now make-koshi. Unless he miraculously runs the table, I suspect he'll be on his way to retirement soon...if not this basho, than after the next basho when he fails to get back to Juryo from upper Makushita. Maybe I'm being premature, but I'll miss him. I have found him entertaining over the years. 

That'll be a sad day. I'm no fan of his but he'll be missed.

[cyclonicleo 11]

Methinks that this basho, Shohozan has shown that he might have an MMA career in the offing with some of those KO-slaps. Then again, Takakeisho showed his slapping power too yesterday. What a crazy basho.

[Jakusotsu 3,725]

Makunouchi action starting fittingly with two matta (not the gyoji's fault this time).

Perhaps they'd better adopt the amateur rules and start by gyoji command.

[Akinomaki 28,758]

With Takayasu not on the torikumi of day 11, makekoshi and drop to sekiwake is sealed. Wakatakakage also seems to be sensible, avoiding to aggravate his injury - there's 1 day left though to be tempted.

[Eikokurai 2,270]

Asanoyama has put himself in pole position for the Sekiwake promotion should Mitakeumi fail to secure his kachikoshi, and possibly even if he doesn’t fail, depending on how generous the banzuke committee is feeling. They might yet open a third slot (Takayasu drops to Sekiwake in January).

Edited November 19, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Amamaniac 1,508]

32 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Asanoyama has put himself in pole position for the Sekiwake promotion

Perhaps, just perhaps, more importantly he has protected his pole position in the race for most Top Division wins in 2019.  And he is now the only wrestler trailing Hakuho by one loss.  It doesn't hurt that he got his KK today too!

[Kintamayama 33,807]

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

I think Enho will now be especially fired up to rise above the Konosuke hell

No, he just didn't have his hand down, and because of you, Kounosuke was afraid to call it. I hope you are happy now..

[Morty 1,252]

Mitakeumi picked the wrong guy to go against on the belt. While I applaud his desire to become a more versatile and rounded wrestler h e should only try to expand his repertoire of belt techniques at this point against guys who aren't already really good on the belt.