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2019 Kyushu Basho Discussion (spoiler alert)

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11 minutes ago, since_94 said:

The sumo on display was so much better back then, wasn’t it? Rare to see anything even remotely as entertaining these days. The old vids make me feel like the sport is in the tank these days, technique wise. Pushing thrusting slapping slipping or some combination thereof 95% of the  time now.

Judging past events based on the highlight-worthy aspects of them that people actually care to remember later is always iffy. The 1990s had their fair share of rikishi who bored the audience to tears and whose careers were forgotten the moment they retired.

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Liked today's bouts a lot. Endo vs Okinoumi the most. I'm amazed by Kagayaki suddenly looking solid. Is this one of his bi-annual Kachikoshi coming through? Glad that Asanoyama is having another good showing, I like his Sumo a lot. 

I will chime in with my own two Cents (aka a longish ramble) on the Enho debate, so if you feel like enough has been said already, feel free to ignore. 

I'm one who in every basho within the last 18 months or so considers Enho to have reached his glass ceiling, and every basho so far he surprised me. I honestly thought he would not make it out of Juryo, than go 4-11 in his first Makuuchi basho, and 2-3 wins at best once he got to single digit Maegashira ranks.

I' m positively surprised by his results and always looking forward to watch his performance, so I may be the antithesis to Rocks. He already had a fine career in my opinion, although I hope he will get some longevity out of it aswell. 

As for the matta, I honestly think it was a wrong call. Both were up and in fighting stance, albeit neither one of them bullrushing the other. Additionally I have not seen more matta in Enho matches than in other Matches while following live streams. 

Sumo is an extraordinary phenomenon in many regards, and the start to bouts is pretty much in line that. The opponents have to consent for a start and an umpire has to evaluate said consent to get the match underway. There are bound to be misunderstandings and there are also bound to be tactical usages of the Tachiai. Soft or slow tachiais happen far more often, some looking matta-esque.

I remember the Hakuho vs Yoshikaze bout two years ago were Yoshikaze got really slowly out of the blocks into a really soft Tachiai, visibly throwing Hakuho off-game, who tried to get the shimpan to Call a monoii matta afterwards. 

I honestly think there is nothing wrong or indignified about submarine tachiais (which the smaller guys including Enho often go for) when you are certain size and fight guys with an average of 60 kg advantage. As long as you are within the rules of course. I'm not a fan of Aoiyama, but I won't try to outlaw pushing attacks, and not only for him especially. 

As for special treatment, I haven't seen it up until now. On the contrarary, in the first two Makuuchi basho he had numerous close bouts where they could have at least given him a torinaoshi if he actually was their golden boy. This is not to say they won't be happy about a young and populär Rikishi performing well, just saying that there isn't a lot of special treatment outside of the privileges earned due to his efforts. 

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34 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Our Rocks has provided the material for many interesting replies and enriched the discussion, before the thing drifted on to personal aspects that don't belong in this thread and should be pointed out in PMs. You can't argue with rocks anyway, they are famous for being stubborn.

Maybe I've been on the internet too long, but I'm not feeling particularly enriched by reading conversations that consist of nothing more than a bunch of people having to debunk somebody else's self-contradictory nonsense.

(I don't recall too many people being heartbroken when Mark Buckton ceased to offer such opportunities to the forum. A few overzealous Asashoryu fans also come to mind in that regard.)

Edited by Asashosakari
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The Shohozan throw was beautiful, he's eating up that crowd support.

What is going on with Chiyotairyu?! He should be an absolute destroyer this far down the banzuke. It's been a crazy year.

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54 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Has your careful thinking ever led to a situation in which you concluded that it was you who was wrong about something rather than everybody else? The answer to that may enlighten folks here as to the usefulness of engaging in future debates with you.

Yes, it has,  often. In which case I don't comment to begin with. I also try not to presume I speak for everybody else. Or anybody else, besides myself.

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3 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Yes, it has,  often. In which case I don't comment to begin with. I also try not to presume I speak for everybody else. Or anybody else, besides myself.

 

30 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Maybe I've been on the internet too long, but I'm not feeling particularly enriched by reading conversations that consist of nothing more than a bunch of people having to debunk somebody else's self-contradictory nonsense.

Far be it from me to insert myself as a newbie, but I feel like you guys reached "agree to disagree" quite a while ago and now we're way off topic.

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On 17/11/2019 at 14:03, Tochinofuji said:

Enho/Yutakayama controversy aside, as a long time fan of Toyohibiki, I was heartened to see Onosho pay homage to his style of sumo and clutch defeat from those pesky jaws of victory. 

Baton picked up by Chiyotairyu today.

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2 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Baton picked up by Chiyotairyu today.

Right?! Props to Sadanoumi though. He's one I constantly forget exists and yet is perpetually there. 

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What on earth is going on with the universe?

Konosuke wore a colour that isn't red.

If we can have a non-red Konosuke, what's next? A Shodai ozeki run? Hakuho being praised for his good sportsmanship? The mind reels.

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1 hour ago, Sue said:

Konosuke wore a colour that isn't red.

For the record, Konosuke has been mixing up his wardrobe ever since he got promoted to sanyaku In January of this year.

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If Kotoshogiku were in better condition, Enho wouldn't have taken that bout. Alas, you get who you get, and he did a fine job using his speed advantage to run rings around Kotoshogiku and get the win.

Loved the Shohozan bout, and that glorious finish. Picture perfect. The fire Shohozan brings is why I support him.

Glad to see Mitakeumi rounding out his game with grappling. It's not translating into ozeki promotion (grumble, grumble) but it never hurts to have a plan B.

Takakeisho v. Hokutofuji: again, not clean, not pretty, but lots of movement and entertaining as all hell. Thumbs up. Extra points for Hokutofuji's spring-loaded catapult jump at the end. Hey, if you're gonna go out, might as well go for distance.

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Kotoshogiku looks very near the end. I may be wrong but I have a hunch that he would retire rather than fall to juryo.

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2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Maybe I've been on the internet too long, but I'm not feeling particularly enriched by reading conversations that consist of nothing more than a bunch of people having to debunk somebody else's self-contradictory nonsense. 

I noticed that you waited a long time till you showed your impatience - till the belief in conspiracy became too obvious (or maybe you were catching up only then).

For me as a big Enho fan (my ozeki west right now), it was delightful to see one member after the after defend Enho - something other than simply all just exchanging their nice or neutral views. There is no need to have the devil's advocate reflect on his arguments, it only gets boring when the same people have to repeat their same arguments - and unpleasant once it gets personal.

Unlike with some we don't have to endure here anymore now, there is nothing annoying in the posts of Rocks.

Edited by Akinomaki
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Takakeishou is looking stronger as we go along ...a good thing but somebody has to beat the Hak. They already sent In Tamawashi to break his arm and didn't work.  ...that's a  joke son...:|

 Nice to see Kagayaki wining with a grip and lowing his hips.. Nice

Edited by Philioyamfugi
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This may or may not be all that significant, but...  

At the end of the Top DIvision's west side dohyoiri, sendo Shikimori Kandayu stepped off the ring using the same stairs as the wrestlers (when gyoji generally use the centre stairs), and the yobidashi with the clappers stepped in front of the gyoji going out via the hanamichi (when usually they trail behind the gyoji).  This is the first time I have ever witnessed such departures from tradition.  Probably not worthy of censure.  But I assume that there is a right way and a wrong way of doing these things.

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Commentator Yoshikaze.

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Or I suppose we should call him Nakamura Oyakata now. I don't know if I can get used to that.

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3 minutes ago, dada78641 said:

Commentator Yoshikaze.

Or I suppose we should call him Nakamura Oyakata now. I don't know if I can get used to that.

You have time for that till his danpatsu-shiki - he is still also a rest of Yoshikaze till then, when he appears on the dohyo for the last time and officially takes on the toshiyori name.

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14 hours ago, cyclonicleo said:

I absolutely LOVED this. This is the sort of thing that makes for great TV and brings in casual punters. Yes, its not strict and the NSK would be decidedly cheesed off, but this is the sort of thing that livens up a basho. A bit of spectacle never hurts and this was rather intriguing....and Konnosuke was pissed!

As a someone who has only been watching sumo for a year and a half at this point, I felt the same exact way. It was an exciting match that had me on the edge of my seat. I loved the strategy that Yutakayama used and it made me appreciate both rikishi even more after the bout! 

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5 hours ago, Houmanumi said:

The Shohozan throw was beautiful, he's eating up that crowd support.

Absolutely agree with you on both fronts.  The question I have is whether it was a simple uwatenage.  In his execution of the overarm throw, he lifts his right leg to guide Onosho into the throw.  I am not completely versant in all the kimarite in sumo, but it strikes me that that throw qualifies as a kakenage ...  I have this impression that Asashoryu liked to use this throw.

Edited by Amamaniac

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I think kakenage involves more of a hooking around the opponent's leg, rather than a thrusting up of it. This video has a good example I think.

Incidentally, on the topic of Yoshikaze, he lost his last amateur bout in the below tournament--to the guy doing the throw. 16:00 for that ....

 

Edited by Katooshu

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Fun facts:

Shohozan wins 5.4% of his bouts by uwatenage.

He never won by uwatenage in the lower divisions. He needed to climb up to makuuchi to discover that technique.

Today he celebrated his 500th career win, his 300th as maegashira. Congrats, punk!

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23 hours ago, Rocks said:

The difference is no matta was called. Mainoumi's opponent was allowed to use the same tactic. The difference is after that matta Enho charges and leaves early knowing he'll be called for a 2nd matta.  Expecting his opponent to now be resigned to HAVING to charge on the next as if he doesn't he may be called for a matta again. The result of which is they'll be called out onto the carpet and he'll chewed out for being hesitant against a much smaller guy. And we know this to be true. Konosuke flat out tells Yutakayama he called the first matta because he failed to sense they intended to collide. Certainly this can't be on Enho. If Enho was called for a matta every time he failed to intend to collide most of his matches would never start. The matta was called specifically because Yutakayama failed to charge.  People here are acting like there is some issue with this tactic or that I think it should be completely disallowed. I didn't. I suggested just the opposite.  Every rikishi facing Enho should do it. I do not have a problem with the tactic. I have a problem with Enho doing it constantly AND the gyoji's favoring him with matta calls on what is clearly a legitimate start to make his use of it effective.

Yutakayama finally stood up and said "Go ahead call all the mattas you want. I am not going to charge and place myself off balance so that my much smaller opponent can use that against me as he almost certainly can not beat me in any other way. If you won't make him engage I won't either. Go pound sand."

Somehow this became a "controversy"  or that it was somehow on Konosuke. Neither is true. Konosuke did nothing different than the gyoji's in  Enho's other matches.

Maybe next someone will start tssuparing the crap out of Enho's head  which somehow magically never seems to happen. 

I'm catching up to the weekend's bouts just now so apologies if I'm digging up an argument that should remain buried, but I just wanted to specify that during the post match replays, Mainoumi said that in his opinion Kounosuke was wrong to call the first matta, and he was also wrong to encourage the rikishi to smash together on the third try when they did the standing up tachiai again. So it may not really be a matter of the tachiai being disallowed, just Kounosuke being confused and failing to react in an appropriate way. 

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10 hours ago, Morty said:

They are really cracking down on Tsurugisho at the tachiai this basho. Has there been a day where he hasn't been called for a matta?

This is a good thing. He is the slowest rikishi I've ever seen at the tachiai.

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7 minutes ago, dingo said:

I'm catching up to the weekend's bouts just now so apologies if I'm digging up an argument that should remain buried, but I just wanted to specify that during the post match replays, Mainoumi said that in his opinion Kounosuke was wrong to call the first matta, and he was also wrong to encourage the rikishi to smash together on the third try when they did the standing up tachiai again. So it may not really be a matter of the tachiai being disallowed, just Kounosuke being confused and failing to react in an appropriate way. 

Clearly, Konosuke was confused and made a wrong call on the first matta. I think he needs a refreshing course or retire.

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Yes, over the weekend, the Hakuho match on Day 8 was rather entertaining. Once Hakuho was irritated, I figured the match was essentially over. I'd have been floored if Tamawashi? had won, having predisposed the GOAT to come with his game.

Also on Day 8 how about Ishiura's win by Mitokorozeme? There's a kimarite I'd never seen before! 

Can't wait to get home and see the Kotoshogiku-Enho match this evening...

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