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2019 Kyushu Basho Discussion (spoiler alert)

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There was a Gagamaru-Enho bout in juryo ages ago that was a lot like the Enho-Yutakayama bout today. Gagamaru kept refusing to charge blindly into a henka, but the gyoji kept calling matta (something like 3 times) until he did.

Edited by yohcun
fixing grammar
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18 minutes ago, yohcun said:

There was a Gagamaru-Enho bout in juryo ages ago that was a lot like the Enho-Yutakayama bout today. Gagamaru kept refusing to charge blindly into a henka, but the gyoji kept calling matta (something like 3 times) until he did.

Yes, that was a real beauty of a match.  Kept calling mattas till Enho got an effective henka.

BTW, someone want to explain why the first 2 were called mattas? Both rikishi get their hands down, Gagamaru both hands. And they start at the same time.

Edited by Rocks

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2 hours ago, Rocks said:

if sumo operated the way Enho does it would have ceased to exist 100 years ago. The tach-ai with the charge is the fundamental appeal to the sport.

And yet the first 1000 years or so of its existence, that was how the not-yet- tachi-ai looked - in sumai. You could think of it as Enho to bring back some genes of the robust wild form into the cultivated plant of the present sumo. And that sort of tachi-ai also makes henka impossible. If ALL would do it like that though, the average bout length would double from the now 8 seconds that Abema reported today - and sumo would indeed lose its appeal. But the same is true if ALL would go for a henka. Both are still not ruled out,  the NSK is only obsessed with trying to enforce the hands down tachi-ai so far.

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9 hours ago, sekitori said:

The harite is a legal tactic, but one that the elders for some reason consider to be improper for a yozuna to use. In Hakuho's case, he doesn't use it to cause damage. It's only for distraction and as such, it works well. If you want to see how lethal a single slap to the side of the head can be, check out this match between Kyokudozan and Kushimaumi.

 

I as talking about a post bout slap that he does, in Hakuho's damage arsenal he mainly uses the slap to set up for the elbow just like the jab-straight in boxing and jab-elbow in muay thai.

The elders are just worried Hakuho will start knocking everyone into concussions, i say screw the elders on their fake care for the sake of rikishi's health.

Edited by Joaoiyama

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Hello everyone!

I am new to this forum. Registered a few days back and have not read the entire thread yet but could someone please tell me the news about Chiyonokuni? He has only had one win and one loss so far as Makushita 2. I guess he's had another injury. How serious is that? Could he be returning in January?

Thanks a lot. 

 

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Can't wait for the results of the next mongolian karaoke evening ^^

 

Enho does what he has to do against opponents who almost always outweigh him by 50% or more. Do i want to see "tachi-ai" like today all the time? No, but once in a while it brings some welcome variety to the show. Was it legit? Yes. Are Enho's tactics legit? Yes, legit and far from unfair. There are other rikishi who stretch the rules a lot further to unfairness, like the harite posted above or the infamous Kinjo vs. Maeta bout.

Speaking about Kinjo/Chiyodaigo, from the banzuke it seems he's injured. Are the any infos?

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Enho/Yutakayama controversy aside, as a long time fan of Toyohibiki, I was heartened to see Onosho pay homage to his style of sumo and clutch defeat from those pesky jaws of victory. 

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4 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Enho does what he has to do against opponents who almost always outweigh him by 50% or more. Do i want to see "tachi-ai" like today all the time? No, but once in a while it brings some welcome variety to the show. Was it legit? Yes. Are Enho's tactics legit? Yes, legit and far from unfair.

On the whole, I agree with what you say.  But, I would like to point out that Enho was adjusting his tactics to Yutakayama's tactics.  That is to say that Enho was not solely to blame for this confusion-causing, no-charge tachiai.  Enho actually approached the shikirisen the way he always does, and probably would have charged immediately.  However, Yuatakayama definitely modified his tactics and got set well behind his shikirisen.  And he, just as much if not more, was not intent on charging.  That effectively prevented Enho from getting inside quickly out of the tachiai.  If anything, I feel inclined to blame Yutakayama and his tactics for what happened today.

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1 minute ago, Amamaniac said:

On the whole, I agree with what you say.  But, I would like to point out that Enho was adjusting his tactics to Yutakayama's tactics.  That is to say that Enho was not solely to blame for this confusion-causing, no-charge tachiai.  Enho actually approached the shikirisen the way he always does, and probably would have charged immediately.  However, Yuatakayama definitely modified his tactics and got set well behind his shikirisen.  And he, just as much if not more, was not intent on charging.  That effectively prevented Enho from getting inside quickly out of the tachiai.  If anything, I feel inclined to blame Yutakayama and his tactics for what happened today.

Yes, should've made it clear i don't blame Enho for what happened today.

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1 hour ago, Naniko said:

Hello everyone!

I am new to this forum. Registered a few days back and have not read the entire thread yet but could someone please tell me the news about Chiyonokuni? He has only had one win and one loss so far as Makushita 2. I guess he's had another injury. How serious is that? Could he be returning in January?

Thanks a lot.

Welcome to the forum.

Chiyonokuni is 3-1 now and scheduled for tomorrow, to hopefully get the win that might be sufficient for the comeback to juryo - after that 2 more chances to make it definite http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_basho.aspx?r=6642&b=201911

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Yutakayama v. Enho was a lot of "What the hell is that?" I expect they'll both get a good chewing out. In the ten years or so I've been watching sumo, I've never seen anything quite like it. Strange match for a strange basho.

Endo vs. Hokutofuji. Well now, here's a match. Hokutofuji all over the place with his feet, but definitely did not want to stop out. He must have calves of steel. Not the cleanest bout, but entertaining nonetheless.

Tamawashi stepped out quite a ways before they stopped wrestling there. It occurs to me that all the rikishi who could consistently play spoiler for Hakuho in the past are no longer around to do so. It's his to lose.

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Takayasu will be sekiwake in the Hatsu basho --- with the option to return to ozeki with 10 win or more, right?

---will we lose him from the ozeki rank?

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5 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Not to mention the fact that he and Kagayaki are now in second place, trailing Hakuho for the championship title.  And despite Kagayaki being Demon Kakka's fav wrestler, I put my money squarely on Asanoyama in terms of giving Hakuho a run for his money in the second closing half of this tournament.

That is an opinion based purely on nipples, isn't it? :-P

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No one seen this? Watching Enho vs Yutakayama i was actually surprised with the gyoji declaring the first tachi ai a false start although he needed to hakkeyoi on the second to urge them to take action.

Edited by Joaoiyama
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The difference is that Yutakayama and Enho both knew they would play the stay back game so both weren't expecting each other to come forward anyway while Mainoumi and Kyokudozan were defensively prepared and expecting somewhat of a forward encounter from each other. 

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The main cases of a rikishi being in the doyho-iri to then go kyujo for his bout that day: Day 12 Aki 1989, but the more "usual" way: Fujinoshin sat at the dohyo and Misugisato fell onto him and broke his leg.

A similar scenario like Takayasu today was on day 5 Hatsu 1957: kadoban ozeki Oouchiyama did shiko stamping in the shitaku-beya and injured his knee. He couldn't reenter and dropped from ozeki. http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201911170000992.html

Edited by Akinomaki
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Almost forgot to mention how cool it was to see Ishiura pull a Mainoumi move like that. Both small guys, but Ishiura isn't the same caliber of tactician that Mainoumi was, so it's nice to see him try something new in there. 

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1 hour ago, Koorifuu said:

That is an opinion based purely on nipples, isn't it? :-P

Wow.  You just blew my mind! (Bow...)

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1 hour ago, Akoushousan said:

Takayasu will be sekiwake in the Hatsu basho --- with the option to return to ozeki with 10 win or more, right?

---will we lose him from the ozeki rank?

I'm glad someone is concerned about poor Takayasu.  His fate may just have been sealed today.  Yes, he will drop down to Sekiwake in the next tournament (January), and yes he will have a chance to restore his Ozeki rank with a ≥10 win performance.  And if you are implying that he may not succeed in returning to Ozeki (ever), then I have to share your concern.

Also on my mind is the whole engagement and condition-for-marriage business.  I actually feel worse for his fiancée.  Just how long is she supposed to wait?

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9 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

People need to start paying attention to Daieisho. This kid is looking more and more like the real deal to me. Not without his flaws of course, but frankly seems to have more in his toolbox than both Takakeisho and Mitakeumi.

I think he's looked very strong and grounded this basho, building on his last few performances, but I can't say I've noticed anything to say he has more in his toolbox than the others, he's just being more consistently solid (read; un-injured...) Which, to be honest, is something that is needed in the upper ranks at the moment. Let's hope he doesn't get injured too... 

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Wasn't there an Ura-bout once, where he (a bit injured) started from the tawara? Or did he slide back to the tawara during the bout?

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6 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Wasn't there an Ura-bout once, where he (a bit injured) started from the tawara? Or did he slide back to the tawara during the bout?

Many years ago, Kyokushuzan would do this now and then in matches with Takamisakari.

 

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12 minutes ago, Benihana said:

Wasn't there an Ura-bout once, where he (a bit injured) started from the tawara? Or did he slide back to the tawara during the bout?

He did, his injured his foot the day before and started the boot with his injured foot against the bale from the start. Don't quote me on that but I think he even won the bout.

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5 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Welcome to the forum.

Chiyonokuni is 3-1 now and scheduled for tomorrow, to hopefully get the win that might be sufficient for the comeback to juryo - after that 2 more chances to make it definite http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Rikishi_basho.aspx?r=6642&b=201911

Oh, this is so nice. Thanks a lot for the info. Great discussion, everyone. With love from Tbilisi :) 

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