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2019 Kyushu Basho Discussion (spoiler alert)

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1 minute ago, Rocks said:

Wut?

 

He was shown leaning on his tsukebito and being led down the corridor looking pretty light headed.

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According to the reporter talking to Yutakayama after their bout:

Yuktayama asked Konosuke what the deal was with the 1st Matta.

Konosuke replied:

He felt the two didn't have "intention to charge" the first time so he called a matta, but he sensed they did have "intent to charge" the second time, so he allowed it.

So there you have it.

 

Edited by Kaninoyama
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Just now, Eikokurai said:

Again, either a technique is legitimate all the time or none of the time. You can’t have a “just against Enho” exception. If it’s a fair defence against him, it’s fair for him to use it as a defense against other forms of tachiai. Incidentally, even the likes of Hakuho and Asashoryu often stand and absorb without moving forward. Being a “receiver” is actually pretty common. Enho takes it another step but it’s in the same vein. It’s not a requirement that you close your eyes and charge like Kotoshogiku.

I have no idea what your point is. Mine is clearly that refusing to engage is not right. If they are going to allow it then the rikishi should do it and not be called for matta after matta  for it against Enho. Which they often are. Konoske stopped the first for just that reason. He expected Yutakayama to charge and he didn't so he stopped it.

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People need to start paying attention to Daieisho. This kid is looking more and more like the real deal to me. Not without his flaws of course, but frankly seems to have more in his toolbox than both Takakeisho and Mitakeumi.

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7 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I have no idea what your point is. Mine is clearly that refusing to engage is not right. If they are going to allow it then the rikishi should do it and not be called for matta after matta  for it against Enho. Which they often are. Konoske stopped the first for just that reason. He expected Yutakayama to charge and he didn't so he stopped it.

I’m not sure how much clearer I can be: Enho’s tachiai technique is perfectly legitimate and it’s unfair to say he “has no place in sumo” simply because you don’t like it. Nor is it consistent to argue that it’s cool to use his tachiai technique as a defence against him, but not cool for him to use it in the first place. Either the technique is acceptable or it isn’t. (Although in the interests of accuracy, he does engage at most tachiai, he usually just ducks first.) 

Moreover, dismissing him on the basis of his tachiai ignores everything that happens thereafter, where he comes in for close-quarter battle against men twice his size. That’s real sumo. He doesn’t run away and keep people at arms length. He fights on the belt. He is completely deserving of his place in the sport.

Edited by Eikokurai
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Great stuff from Endo and Hokutofuji. The latter had no right to stay in the bout as long as he did! Great defence on the tawara.

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2 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I’m not sure how much clearer I can be: Enho’s tachiai technique is perfectly legitimate and it’s unfair to say he “has no place in sumo” simply because you don’t like it. Nor is it consistent to argue that it’s cool to use his tachiai technique as a defence against him, but not cool for him to use it in the first place. Either the technique is acceptable or it isn’t. (Although in the interests of accuracy, he does engage at most tachiai, he usually just ducks first.) 

if sumo operated the way Enho does it would have ceased to exist 100 years ago. The tach-ai with the charge is the fundamental appeal to the sport. Since Enho rarely bothers to perform a  tach-ai he has no place in sumo IMO.

And what could be more consistent to say than rikishi should go against him the way he does? If he has no intention of charging why should anyone else be forced to do so?

And in case you are doubting that they are expected to do so regardless of what Enho does just  look at Konosuke's answer to Yutakayama. He called matta there because of Yutakayama's actions.  Enho does that all the time. I doubt he was surprised by that.

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1 minute ago, Kaninoyama said:

Apparently with the sudden Takayasu kyujo, the match-ups for tomorrow need to be reconfigured.

His bout today will be a fusenpai and they don’t like to give two in a row. The most recent case of back-to-back fusen losses in Makuuchi was Fujinoshin in September 1989.

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1 minute ago, Rocks said:

if sumo operated the way Enho does it would have ceased to exist 100 years ago. The tach-ai with the charge is the fundamental appeal to the sport. Since Enho rarely bothers to perform a  tach-ai he has no place in sumo IMO.

And what could be more consistent to say than rikishi should go against him the way he does? If he has no intention of charging why should anyone else be forced to do so?

And in case you are doubting that they are expected to do so regardless of what Enho does just  look at Konosuke's answer to Yutakayama. He called matta there because of Yutakayama's actions.  Enho does that all the time. I doubt he was surprised by that.

The Mainoumi tachi-ai Enho is doing has not ever harmed sumo in any way in the past - it enriched it, and Enho is repeating that now. The only one who refused to do a tachi-ai was Yutakayama in the 2nd try.

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2 minutes ago, Rocks said:

if sumo operated the way Enho does it would have ceased to exist 100 years ago. The tach-ai with the charge is the fundamental appeal to the sport. Since Enho rarely bothers to perform a  tach-ai he has no place in sumo IMO.

And what could be more consistent to say than rikishi should go against him the way he does? If he has no intention of charging why should anyone else be forced to do so?

And in case you are doubting that they are expected to do so regardless of what Enho does just  look at Konosuke's answer to Yutakayama. He called matta there because of Yutakayama's actions.  Enho does that all the time. I doubt he was surprised by that.

So your argument is:

Enho does it = bad

Enho’s aite does it = good

This is a clear hypocrisy. If you genuinely disapprove of the technique, you’ll disapprove of it full stop. What I suspect is you don’t much like Enho and so are prepared to overlook it when he’s on the receiving end. 

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1 minute ago, Eikokurai said:

So your argument is:

Enho does it = bad

Enho’s aite does it = AGAINST ENHO as the gyoji's pretty much leave them no choice.

This is a clear hypocrisy. If you genuinely disapprove of the technique, you’ll disapprove of it full stop. What I suspect is you don’t much like Enho and so are prepared to overlook it when he’s on the receiving end. 

I fixed it for you. Do you understand what I am saying now? I don't disapprove of the technique. I disapprove of the idea that rikishi should make this their principle technique and then the gyoji's force their opponents to go at them regardless. There's no hypocrisy on my part. Just the gyoji's in treating Enho differently, which they clearly do as konosuke's comment shows.

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Takakeisho is beginning to find his form. A convincing win over Meisei. 

Edited by Kaninoyama

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2 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Asanoyama's win today puts him the lead in total wins for the year.

Asanoyama got into the lead already on day 2, and later was sole leader once - Abi had caught up with him and now Asanoyama is sole leader again.

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46 minutes ago, Rocks said:

FINALLY! Somebody did what everyone should do against Enho. He refuses to perform a real tachi-ai and gets away with it time and time again. Perfect example of why Enho has no business in Sumo.  All Enho ever does is stand up and react at the tach-ai. That isn't sumo. Every rikishi should refuse to engage until he moves forward.

 

38 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Because he's allowed to get away with it.  I'm not saying to it in every match. Just against Enho. 

 

29 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I have no idea what your point is. Mine is clearly that refusing to engage is not right. If they are going to allow it then the rikishi should do it and not be called for matta after matta  for it against Enho. Which they often are. Konoske stopped the first for just that reason. He expected Yutakayama to charge and he didn't so he stopped it.

 

14 minutes ago, Rocks said:

if sumo operated the way Enho does it would have ceased to exist 100 years ago. The tach-ai with the charge is the fundamental appeal to the sport. Since Enho rarely bothers to perform a  tach-ai he has no place in sumo IMO.

And what could be more consistent to say than rikishi should go against him the way he does? If he has no intention of charging why should anyone else be forced to do so?

And in case you are doubting that they are expected to do so regardless of what Enho does just  look at Konosuke's answer to Yutakayama. He called matta there because of Yutakayama's actions.  Enho does that all the time. I doubt he was surprised by that.

 

2 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I fixed it for you. Do you understand what I am saying now? I don't disapprove of the technique. I disapprove of the idea that rikishi should make this their principle technique and then the gyoji's force their opponents to go at them regardless. There's no hypocrisy on my part. Just the gyoji's in treating Enho differently, which they clearly do as konosuke's comment shows.

It sure seems like you disapprove of the technique.

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21 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Apparently with the sudden Takayasu kyujo, the match-ups for tomorrow need to be reconfigured.

They will have to completely rearrange the juryo match-ups as well.

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Ooh ... a little snipe from Hakuho there after the second tachiai. The YDC will be drafting a stern warning letter!

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19 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

 

 

 

 

It sure seems like you disapprove of the technique.

I disapprove of it's almost constant use as Enho does. Yes. Add into that the gyoji's forcing his opponents to charge or be called for a matta, very much so.

Edited by Rocks

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3 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

They will have to completely rearrange the juryo match-ups as well.

That's right. Juryo match-ups were already arranged and announced, but since someone will have to step up to Makuuchi, those go out the window as well. 

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They have indeed changed the Makuuchi torikumi matchups, with Tochiozan getting a return visit to Makuuchi earlier than expected.

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1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:
1 hour ago, Rocks said:

FINALLY! Somebody did what everyone should do against Enho. He refuses to perform a real tachi-ai and gets away with it time and time again. Perfect example of why Enho has no business in Sumo.  All Enho ever does is stand up and react at the tach-ai. That isn't sumo. Every rikishi should refuse to engage until he moves forward.

 

1 hour ago, Rocks said:

Because he's allowed to get away with it.  I'm not saying to it in every match. Just against Enho. 

 

1 hour ago, Rocks said:

I have no idea what your point is. Mine is clearly that refusing to engage is not right. If they are going to allow it then the rikishi should do it and not be called for matta after matta  for it against Enho. Which they often are. Konoske stopped the first for just that reason. He expected Yutakayama to charge and he didn't so he stopped it.

 

1 hour ago, Rocks said:

if sumo operated the way Enho does it would have ceased to exist 100 years ago. The tach-ai with the charge is the fundamental appeal to the sport. Since Enho rarely bothers to perform a  tach-ai he has no place in sumo IMO.

And what could be more consistent to say than rikishi should go against him the way he does? If he has no intention of charging why should anyone else be forced to do so?

And in case you are doubting that they are expected to do so regardless of what Enho does just  look at Konosuke's answer to Yutakayama. He called matta there because of Yutakayama's actions.  Enho does that all the time. I doubt he was surprised by that.

 

1 hour ago, Rocks said:

I fixed it for you. Do you understand what I am saying now? I don't disapprove of the technique. I disapprove of the idea that rikishi should make this their principle technique and then the gyoji's force their opponents to go at them regardless. There's no hypocrisy on my part. Just the gyoji's in treating Enho differently, which they clearly do as konosuke's comment shows.

It sure seems like you disapprove of the technique.

Of all times for Konosuke to cause a s%#t storm on the Forum, and dear Golden Balls is MIA to weigh in and sort everyone out! (Laughing...)

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2 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Of all times for Konosuke to cause a s%#t storm on the Forum, and dear Golden Balls is MIA to weigh in and sort everyone out! 

I'm sure @Kintamayama would say Konosuke's answer to Yutakayama made perfect sense.

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1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:
1 hour ago, Kaninoyama said:

Asanoyama's win today puts him the lead in total wins for the year.

Asanoyama got into the lead already on day 2, and later was sole leader once - Abi had caught up with him and now Asanoyama is sole leader again.

Not to mention the fact that he and Kagayaki are now in second place, trailing Hakuho for the championship title.  And despite Kagayaki being Demon Kakka's fav wrestler, I put my money squarely on Asanoyama in terms of giving Hakuho a run for his money in the second closing half of this tournament.

Edited by Amamaniac

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