UDH Kyushu Basho 2019

[Akinomaki 28,370]

5 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

Incidentally, it was amusing to see you use the word 'cheating', which is a pretty damning thing to say to those who simply followed the rules. It's an unfair advantage due to the time zones, which is why it should be changed to a fairer system, but to call those who changed their picks legitimately with new information before the official deadline 'cheats' is a bit silly.

I used this knowing that playing by the rules is by definition not cheating, but I say it's cheating on the game to use information of day 1. It doesn't matter if it's from before the start of the action of the part of day 1 that is covered by the game: a kyujo on day 1 is a result of day 1, known a bit earlier than the actually fusensho non-bout: quite some kinboshi bonus points for free in hoshitori as well.

These are pre-basho games, and the deadline could be set to 24 hours after the day 1 and 2 torikumi are out, so that all players have that information - any later deadline is just a convenience, but not necessary.

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

42 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

I used this knowing that playing by the rules is by definition not cheating, but I say it's cheating on the game to use information of day 1. It doesn't matter if it's from before the start of the action of the part of day 1 that is covered by the game: a kyujo on day 1 is a result of day 1, known a bit earlier than the actually fusensho non-bout: quite some kinboshi bonus points for free in hoshitori as well.

These are pre-basho games, and the deadline could be set to 24 hours after the day 1 and 2 torikumi are out, so that all players have that information - any later deadline is just a convenience, but not necessary.

"It doesn't matter blah blah blah..."

But it DOES matter! This is the essential point. The 'action' from the other divisions has no relevance whatsoever to this game. NONE! ZERO! AN EX=PARROT! And so 'day one' of this particular game begins when Makuuchi begins. Any information we have can and should be applied to our entries before that time for the reasons I explained above.

But I see there is no further point arguing with you if you are capable of such self-serving 'logic', and I'll of course go along with whatever the owner of the game decides. I've made my points to those reading and will leave it at that.

[Rocks 1,457]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

so that all players have that information

 

33 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

And so 'day one' of this particular game begins when Makuuchi begins. Any information we have can and should be applied to our entries before that time for the reasons I explained above.

This sort of thinking is 2 sides of the same coin. Just arguing over how to let some information in "fairly".  Ignoring the fact that any information, like a guaranteed top point getter for the basho, impacts the game to a degree so great that it changes the very nature of the game. Any information, no matter how fair and equal a chance players have to attain it, should not be any part of any game.  There is no logical way to suggest that allowing a ringer in for the single most important pick of a game is in some way fair. There just isn't IMHO.

 

I would agree with Panda though that the substitution method is not good.  It should bump everyone up with the sub coming in at the bottom.

[Akinomaki 28,370]

17 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I would agree with Panda though that the substitution method is not good.  It should bump everyone up with the sub coming in at the bottom. 

The substitutes in UDH are only for those who send in their picks way before the deadline and don't care for the information of the torikumi at all - they don't read the kyujo announcements from 2 days before the basho starts.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Akinomaki

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

"Any information, no matter how fair and equal a chance players have to attain it, should not be any part of any game."

Will this be your epitaph?? It should be!! What in the name of Satan's swollen bollocks are you saying, sir??

Look, this is bloody silly. We play games to enjoy them, to enhance the sport we all love, and hopefully to do well in them. All players would probably agree with the first two points, and as for the last one, it will depend on the seriousness of the player.

But in a game like UDH where a catastrophic withdrawal can occur, the deadline should be as late as possible so everyone can have a chance to make changes. The serious players will do it if they are serious. The not-so-serious players may or may not, and won't care all that much. But one thing is for sure, if your top lad pulls out, you are out of the game and probably won't even check it over the basho. Enjoyment over. This should make it obvious that the deadline should allow everyone to have a chance.

This talk of 'prebasho' being before 8am is arbitrary and profoundly idiotic. The basho FOR THIS GAME starts at 4pm. End of story. And as for calling fellow player cheats for following the rules even when they didn't want to and hated doing so, well, I had better not comment on that as I have not been banned yet. ;)

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Pandaazuma

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

I should add that I think the replacement system is fine as long as the deadline is as it is now or changed to later. 

However if the deadline is changed to 8am, the current system would be suboptimal for the reasons stated. A Paper Oyakata version would be good in that case.

[Oortael 89]

The UDH deadline is in the middle of the night in Europe, no chance to change our picks in case of a last minute kyujo. It would have been "fairer" had it been 24h before the 1st makuuchi bout, when everyone has the same level of information.

Anyway, I agree the replacement system is better when the sub takes the last spot on you lineup and everyone else is bumped upwards.

[Nantonoyama 194]

In general, I think the deadline should be as late as possible.

Also in this case I do understand that the guys putting Kakuryu as 6-pointer get full points.

I live in Europe and I did not get up early a Sunday morning to see if I have to change my picks. But this is MY problem. The World is round and if some people can take advantage of it, good for them...

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

26 minutes ago, Oortael said:

The UDH deadline is in the middle of the night in Europe, no chance to change our picks in case of a last minute kyujo. It would have been "fairer" had it been 24h before the 1st makuuchi bout, when everyone has the same level of information.

Anyway, I agree the replacement system is better when the sub takes the last spot on you lineup and everyone else is bumped upwards.

My point is that the deadline should be moved forward, to 4pm, which would be 7 or 8am UK time. That is doable for everyone in Europe, especially those living to the east.

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

Nantonayama has it right.

[Rocks 1,457]

2 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

"Any information, no matter how fair and equal a chance players have to attain it, should not be any part of any game."

Will this be your epitaph?? It should be!! What in the name of Satan's swollen bollocks are you saying, sir??

Quote the whole paragraph in context and not just the obvious mistake I made in saying "Any information" instead of "Any such information " then you would understand what I am saying.  I mean it isn't like the line right before this one:

"Ignoring the fact that any information, like a guaranteed top point getter for the basho, impacts the game to a degree so great that it changes the very nature of the game. "

 

doesn't make perfectly clear what information I am talking about.  Willfully disregarding the intent of what I am clearly saying doesn't make your argument any more sound.

2 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

But in a game like UDH where a catastrophic withdrawal can occur, the deadline should be as late as possible so everyone can have a chance to make changes. The serious players will do it if they are serious. The not-so-serious players may or may not, and won't care all that much. But one thing is for sure, if your top lad pulls out, you are out of the game and probably won't even check it over the basho. Enjoyment over. This should make it obvious that the deadline should allow everyone to have a chance.

And can we please stop this silly suggestion this has anything to do with seriousness or quality of players? Any random person who hadn't played the game before could have come in at the last minute  and made the same pick. Obsessively checking the news doesn't  make anyone any more "serious" than anyone else. It just means they have the time. 

This isn't about deadlines. No one is suggesting a person who made a bad pick shouldn't be required to stick with their bad pick if they did not change it in time. The problem here is people who had a guaranteed winner are allowed to make that bet and have it stand.  If we were at the horse track  and you were allowed to make changes to your bet up until post time no one would be arguing the person who bet on the horse who was announced lame and didn't change their bet wouldn't  have to pay up.

The argument is that if someone came out and announced prior to post time that "the winner of this race is guaranteed to be X" no race track would allow anyone to change their bet to X. It is no longer a contest. The purpose of the game has been defeated.  Kakuryu never participated in the basho. The fact his line will say 0-1-14 instead of 0-0-15 doesn't change that fact. Any rikishi who doesn't actually place a foot on the dohyo didn't participate. It makes no difference when you think the basho starts. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Rocks

[Akinomaki 28,370]

3 hours ago, Pandaazuma said:

This talk of 'prebasho' being before 8am is arbitrary and profoundly idiotic. The basho FOR THIS GAME starts at 4pm. End of story. And as for calling fellow player cheats for following the rules even when they didn't want to and hated doing so, well, I had better not comment on that as I have not been banned yet. ;)

Then why do you think the deadline is 12.a.m.? At the time the rule was made that was fair.

You know the outcome of a bout of day 1: that only happens if the basho has already started, else the torikumi would have been changed, or if you can see into the future - then there wold be no fun in playing the game at all.

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

30 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Then why do you think the deadline is 12.a.m.? At the time the rule was made that was fair.

You know the outcome of a bout of day 1: that only happens if the basho has already started, else the torikumi would have been changed, or if you can see into the future - then there wold be no fun in playing the game at all.

Are you fecking serious??

I accepted the deadline as it was because the owner of the game made it that way. As I am eternally grateful to such creators, I rarely argue with them.

It was 'fair' because the decision was arbitrarily taken that the time was fair. It doesn't mean that it is actually true. The fairest decision would be to make the deadline as late as possible, in order to give all the late entrants a decent chance.

I should remind everyone that many game entrants do so at the last minute on shonichi. Look at the Bingo entry list if you don't believe me. Those people will have checked the news and would pick accordingly.

Game, set and match.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Pandaazuma

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

Rocks, did you say something?? Because I didn't read it. I learned not to after your epic Oracle thread! Hope you have improved your debating skills since then, although I am not hopeful. ;)

Must say, however, you have worked out how to play Oracle! That is pretty funny too, given what you were saying at the time. ;)

Edited November 15, 2019 by Pandaazuma

[Akinomaki 28,370]

47 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

I should remind everyone that many game entrants do so at the last minute on shonichi. Look at the Bingo entry list if you don't believe me. Those people will have checked the news and would pick accordingly.

Game, set and match.

Disqualified for doping.

People send in their picks for GTB one week before.

Hoshitori and UDH are pre-basho games, not "have to be played on day 1" games. You have more than enough of that in the other games.

[Rocks 1,457]

1 minute ago, Pandaazuma said:

Rocks, did you say something?? Because I didn't read it. I learned not to after your epic Oracle thread! Hope you have improved your debating skills since then, although I am not hopeful. ;)

Must say, however, you have worked out how to play Oracle! That is pretty funny too, given what you were saying at the time. ;)

Yes, I did. But  you didn't read it. The same way you willfully ignored the context of what I was saying in an attempt to suggest I'm foolish instead of answering what I said. Not bothering to read isn't a virtue.  And it isn't a debate until there are 2 arguments presented. That hasn't happened yet. You can't win a game you don't play. You of all people should know that. ;)

As far as my debating skills they haven't improved at all. They were just fine then and they are just fine now. I think Jejima winning a yusho picking nothing but 7s and 8s proves the point I was making then. It is pretty funny. What will be even funnier is if I continue at the rate I've been going, using exactly the things I pointed out in the Oracle thread, I will make Yokozuna in less than half the time it took you. :)

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

14 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Disqualified for doping.

People send in their picks for GTB one week before.

Hoshitori and UDH are pre-basho games, not "have to be played on day 1" games. You have more than enough of that in the other games.

Rotosumo? FS? PO? Bingo? Norizo? Oracle? Salarycap?

You have epically missed the point. And I really don't know why I am still talking to you, knowing there is no point whatsoever.

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

18 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Yes, I did. But  you didn't read it. The same way you willfully ignored the context of what I was saying in an attempt to suggest I'm foolish instead of answering what I said. Not bothering to read isn't a virtue.  And it isn't a debate until there are 2 arguments presented. That hasn't happened yet. You can't win a game you don't play. You of all people should know that. ;)

As far as my debating skills they haven't improved at all. They were just fine then and they are just fine now. I think Jejima winning a yusho picking nothing but 7s and 8s proves the point I was making then. It is pretty funny. What will be even funnier is if I continue at the rate I've been going, using exactly the things I pointed out in the Oracle thread, I will make Yokozuna in less than half the time it took you. :)

I generally don't read what you write as it is usually tedious, but this one was pretty funny. I skim read it so I don't know the details, but it looks like I will be dealing with you as a rival Oracle Yokozuna. I await the day! ;)

[Akinomaki 28,370]

1 hour ago, Pandaazuma said:

I really don't know why I am still talking to you, knowing there is no point whatsoever.

Because you can't resist to answer and like game conflict.

[Tamanaogijima 350]

Day 6 Standings

[Tamanaogijima 350]

While you all have been causing a stir in here I have been pondering about the problem a bit further...

First of all: it is more of a "problem". During the 120ish basho since UDH has started a shonichi fusen has happened five times in Makuuchi, before that you have to go back to 1991, 1972 and 1966. Towanoyama (M13, 2002.03) and Osunaarashi (M3, 2016.07) were at personal ability levels and ranks that I would expect to be picked by many players in very similar fashion. So was Tokitsuumi (M16, 2006.05), who did even return to the basho later. Kakuryu on the other hand (two times: 2015.04 and 2019.11) was at a position where you would have to have a good reason to pick him in UDH. Makes 2-3 out of 120 basho.

As for the deadline, I do not quite see the point in putting it as late as possible. Yes, more information for more players to use, but what would be the result of it? (Nearly) everyone setting Kakyuryu on 6pts and effectively everyone is playing with 12 rikishi and only 33 daily points.

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

Tama: yes, many would put Kak top, but it is the only way in this particular game to make it fair AND keep most players interested until the end. If Kak was replaced by a sub, which I think was Sadanoumi in my case, my interest in the game would be gone from day one. And most people would be in the same boat, with a dodgy lad at the top while 10% of the players clean up with Kak at the top (as with this basho). At least if the deadline is 4pm, everyone will have a chance to check such news if they really care about the game. And there are still plenty of opportunities for interesting game play with the picks from 5 down to 1.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Pandaazuma

[Pandaazuma 1,256]

As an addition, I keenly remember @Randomitsuki lamenting the end of all interest in a basho when he missed the late shonichi withdrawal of a key player. It ruined his gaming tournament in several games and was unfairly lucky for those who had caught the news. I remember wishing at the time that the deadline had been later and feeling sorry for my fave gamer (who I still sorely miss).

[Tsuchinoninjin 648]

This discussion is constantly reminding the time I misunderstood the rules and intentionally stacked my roster with guys who went kyujo early enough to not appear on day 1 torikumi...

[Rocks 1,457]

7 hours ago, Tamanaogijima said:

As for the deadline, I do not quite see the point in putting it as late as possible. Yes, more information for more players to use, but what would be the result of it? (Nearly) everyone setting Kakyuryu on 6pts and effectively everyone is playing with 12 rikishi and only 33 daily points.

Which is why I would say in the future any rikishi not mounting the dohyo isn't counted. Allowing such a guaranteed top pick diminishes the game. Turning the tide is a perfect example of this. If there is a kyujo that you can pick the night has been reduced to a tossup.  Many of those nights almost everyone wins effectively removing one day of game play in what is a limited number to begin with.  Yes, everyone wins but it's not harmless. But if you are a trailing player  you just lost one opportunity to potentially catch the leaders.