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2019 Aki Basho Discussion (spoiler alert!)

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28 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

Didn't Mitakeumi henka in one of the last fights during his yusho tournament? 

As a Mitakeumi fan, I was surprised and disappointed by his henka.   But it was done against Goeido who uses henka time to time.   

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29 minutes ago, Benevolance said:

Didn't Mitakeumi henka in one of the last fights during his yusho tournament? 

No, he sorta does a HNH against Kaisei Day 11 but he met Kaisei's charge. Even less of one beating Goeido.  In that case Goeido actually drove him but then lost. 

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You live and die by your tachiai. Those who still remember Toyohibiki will perhaps know he is laboring down in makushita, still indignant that other toriteki guys are exploiting that hole in his game. Look up!

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10 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

You live and die by your tachiai. Those who still remember Toyohibiki will perhaps know he is laboring down in makushita, still indignant that other toriteki guys are exploiting that hole in his game. Look up!

Normally I'd agree, such as in the Giku-Aoiyama match. But I don't think Mitakeumi is exploiting a hole here.  It was reasonable for Goiedo to assume Mitakeumi would not henka in such a big match late in the basho when the match after theirs is basically 2 handicap guys hoping they don't fall down.  Goiedo probably said to himself "Would Mitakeumi really do that to the fans?" The look on his face after the match says "Yeah, I guess he would."  If I had paid to get in there I would have had the same look on my face. 

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5 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The hand went up at the same time Endo's foot went back in and likely revealed the mark - I guess the pics will come in the morning, so far none shows the crucial scene, but it's easy to spot when you go slowmo in the Abema hires live stream recording

looks quite different on the first NHK slomo though - there the heel doesn't look out

I await the photos. Naturally living in Japan I have the Abema stream on along with the NHK, yet still saw no disturbed sand. As I saw it, the shimpan raised his hand after several seconds of consideration. A blown call.

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2 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Normally I'd agree, such as in the Giku-Aoiyama match. But I don't think Mitakeumi is exploiting a hole here.  It was reasonable for Goiedo to assume Mitakeumi would not henka in such a big match late in the basho when the match after theirs is basically 2 handicap guys hoping they don't fall down.  Goiedo probably said to himself "Would Mitakeumi really do that to the fans?" The look on his face after the match says "Yeah, I guess he would."  If I had paid to get in there I would have had the same look on my face. 

It's always a possibility, and the best rikishi are aware and ready.

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4 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

It's always a possibility, and the best rikishi are aware and ready.

Yes, I'm sure that was very comforting for the fans on their way out. The 'best" won. He didn't fight, but he won. Golf claps all around.

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Deserves got nothing to do with it. Never seen an Eastwood movie? Watch the Yoks. They don't fall for that. Then, maybe ask why.

Edited by Otokonoyama

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11 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Horrible call.    Now, I want Takakeisho or Mitakeumi to take the yusho to make it fair. 

To be fair, it's not really Okinoumi's fault that the shimpan made a questionable decision. You can't really blame it on Okinoumi if he wins the yusho. Now, with the risk of being controversial which is worse -- winning with a call that may or may not be correct, or with a plain lame henka *cough* Mitakeumi *cough* against an opponent that could've kicked your ass in a normal bout?

Happy for Hokutofuji's kachikoshi, but unfortunately his banzuke rank will fall victim to a somewhat unusually successful sanyaku -- with the exception of poor Tochinoshin, but his fall is not gonna open up a sanyaku position for Hokutofuji.

Tomokaze got close, but in the end he tried to rely on pulldowns too many times in his bouts. If he would've shown the aggressiveness of his two last bouts earlier in the basho, he could've maybe managed to continue his kachikoshi streak...

And it was funny that in the last bout when Furiwake put up his hand to signal Tochinoshin's step-out, the NHK commentator first referred to him as Takamisakari and needed a moment to recall his oyakata name. The legend of the Robocop lives on :)

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If Hokutofuji's not promoted with a KK from M1e it will be the first time that's happened in over 50 years! 

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I repeat myself, but that was no lame henka by Mitakeumi - it was a lightning fast and powerful one. Aoiyama did a pretty lame henka.

The Endo call is not the fault of Takenawa shimpan, who might  have thought wrong with that - it was the fault of too-lazy-to-rise for a mono-ii head shimpan Takashima, who really fills in for Onomatsu. It had been easy to make a mono-ii and check the sand for a heel mark - only if it was really obvious that Endo was out, no mono-ii was necessary.

Edited by Akinomaki
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Anzai tried a running start against Toma. (I'd probably do the same, but in the other direction)

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Otokonoyama said:

Deserves got nothing to do with it. Never seen an Eastwood movie? Watch the Yoks. They don't fall for that. Then, maybe ask why.

Yes, huge Eastwood fan. But in doing that he was giving the fans a good show, unlike Mitakeumi. Those are lines from movies, not quotes from God. The fans deserve to get what they paid for, or at least an honest effort to make that happen. 

And Yoks don't fall for it because Sanyaku rarely, if ever,  pull it in against them without an obvious injury. Mostly because it's letting the fans down. 

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3 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

The Endo call is not the fault of Takenawa shimpan, who might  have thought wrong with that - it was the fault of too-lazy-to-rise-for-a-mono-ii head shimpan Takashima, who really fills in for Onomatsu. It had been easy to make a mono-ii and check the sand for a heel mark - only if it was really obvious that Endo was out, no mono-ii was necessary.

The problem is that the gyoji caught Takenawa's signal and was trying to stop the bout before Okinoumi went out.  The only legitimate call might have been a torinaoshi with a lot of egg on the face of Takenawa.  The shimpan were between a rock and a hard place.

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I could have sworn one of the recent first-time-yusho winners had pulled some henka crap during their run, and I thought it was Mitakeumi, but I could find no video evidence of it. BECAUSE THE VIDEO ASSOCIATED WITH THE ACCOUTNS WAS DELETED. If this isn't a clear RED FLAG that Mitakeumi has something to hide, I don't know what is, but I'm going to raid Area 51 and FIND THE TRUTH. 

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3 hours ago, Rocks said:

A win does nothing for Tochinoshin tomorrow so neither will he. He's far too hurt to go all out for meaningless wins and there is no reason for Goeido to just let him have it.

Sorry, I was not clear.  Has there been a case when both rikishi in a match went kyujo?

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4 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Sorry, I was not clear.  Has there been a case when both rikishi in a match went kyujo?

I don't think so. But give it a few minutes and I'm sure @Asashosakari will find an example from 1928. He always finds it. 

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Since the tachi ai is about using one's power forward you can end up over your center of balance with ease, if there's nothing to catch you just fall over. The secret is keeping the head alligned with your knees as much as possible so the body weight will always be centralized.

Like the great Konishiki said, today is so easy to henka that it seems the rikishi are asking for it.

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1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

I repeat myself, but that was no lame henka by Mitakeumi - it was a lightning fast and powerful one. Aoiyama did a pretty lame henka.

You’re talking about technique. When I call Mitakeumi’s henka “lame”, I’m talking about the act itself. It may have been the most perfectly executed henka of all time, but that’s neither here nor there. He did it as a cheap guarantor of a yusho opportunity tomorrow. He’d just seen his closest challenger win, so knew he needed the same result to stay in the game. He dodged the fight to keep himself alive. Smart, but cynical and cowardly, and that’s what makes it lame.

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1 hour ago, dingo said:

Tomokaze got close, but in the end he tried to rely on pulldowns too many times in his bouts. If he would've shown the aggressiveness of his two last bouts earlier in the basho, he could've maybe managed to continue his kachikoshi streak...

Pulling has been his go-to move when things got tricky in a bout since day one (of his career, not this basho). IMHO, its relative lack of utility simply got exposed by superior competition for the first time this tournament. And as mentioned elsewhere, I remain skeptical that his overall sumo package is at the level many people have been thinking it is since he reached makuuchi.

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1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

You’re talking about technique. When I call Mitakeumi’s henka “lame”, I’m talking about the act itself. It may have been the most perfectly executed henka of all time, but that’s neither here nor there. He did it as a cheap guarantor of a yusho opportunity tomorrow. He’d just seen his closest challenger win, so knew he needed the same result to stay in the game. He dodged the fight to keep himself alive. Smart, but cynical and cowardly, and that’s what makes it lame.

If it's a guaranteed victory then the other rikishi is doing something really wrong.

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The whole turbo-smash into each other at the tachiai is relatively recent thing, check out the multitude of videos online of previous decades of sumo to see why henka would have been less effective then.

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Well the NSK definitely didn't want this yusho to be decided at the 11-4 line, unless Okinoumi had lost that match. When I saw the replay of that match, it did look like Takenawa called that prematurely. But hey, we've seen worse right? Is it controversial? We always have that in sports. But because Okinoumi is the benefactor you all are going to say it's illegitimate again right? When in no way ever he did not henka or lose by hansoku. And if Mitakeumi wins because of him doing a henka to Goeido today, will you call his yusho illegitimate?

You take your hits, run with it, and learn from it.

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1 hour ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

If it's a guaranteed victory then the other rikishi is doing something really wrong.

I said that victory guaranteed him a shot at the yusho today (“guarantor of a yusho opportunity”) not that victory was guaranteed. Pulling a henka was a cheap way of seriously increasing his odds at getting a victory. And yes, it does increase the odds, since the rikishi who pulls a henka wins much more often than not. I don’t have data on that to hand, but from experience of watching sumo for 12+ years I feel confident making that claim. From time to time an aite reads the move and counters it successfully, but he’s more likely to fall on his face or be run off the dohyo, particularly if the henka is totally unexpected and well disguised, as Mitakeumi’s was. Henka takes 50-50 odds and makes them 80-20. After all, if it produces no advantage, why would anyone ever bother doing it?

Edited by Eikokurai

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