2019 Aki Basho Discussion (spoiler alert!)

[Benihana 1,824]

On 14/09/2019 at 12:25, Benihana said:

Remember the 3 Naruto boys going 7-0 in Jk last basho? They are at 3-0, 3-0 and 4-0 at the moment in upper jonidan along with two other 3-1 Narutos.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=1&rowcount=5&heya=56&form1_wins=3-4&form1_year=2019&form1_month=9&form1_jd=on

Naruto-oyakata is doing a very good job, it seems.

Still looking quite well

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=1&rowcount=5&heya=56&form1_rank=jd1-jd20&form1_wins=3-5&form1_year=2019&form1_month=9&form1_jd=on

 

Asanoyama vs. Abi was amazing. Both will have a bright future.

[Rocks 1,790]

20 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

Still a bit miffed about the Enho v Azumaryu match. Look Enho has done this thing before: keep your knees bent and your butt off the floor and hang on to the bigger man as he comes down on top. There's a pretty good chance he will put a hand or knee down first.  It was exactly what Enho was looking to achieve at that point in the fight and he damn well got it.  Shini-tai should not apply when the "dead" man is trying to execute a winning move. But then again, I don't understand shini-tai. No-one does.

Can anyone confirm that was the explanation given for overturning the gyoji's ruling?

As to Enho doing this before, I'd agree. Maybe the Oyakatas think It's about time he stuck to doing something more of the time than "fall slower"? I have no idea what winning move you are suggesting Enho was executing here. He did nothing to effect Azumaryu's fall. He barely did anything to effect Azmaryu at all during the match.

[Tigerboy1966 1,220]

5 hours ago, Dwale said:

when Goeido is on, he's really on.

Goeido reminds me of Stephen Leacock's Lord Ronald who  "flung himself from the room, flung himself upon his horse and rode madly off in all directions". I haven't got a clue what Goeido is trying to do, but he does a lot of it very quickly, and it seems to work. 

[Tigerboy1966 1,220]

6 minutes ago, Rocks said:

He did nothing to effect Azumaryu's fall

So Azumaryu just put his knee on the clay out of charity?

I suppose the winning technique 7-ball corner pocket ruy lopez three-pointer bases loaded homer up-and-under leg before wicket elfmeter 7-10 split (in kanji).

[Rocks 1,790]

Google translate is brutal here but it sure seems to suggest that the ruling was Enho touched first. 

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20190916-00000027-mai-spo

People want to argue Enho didn't touch first that's fine. But Dead Body didn't seem to enter into it.  

[Rocks 1,790]

12 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

So Azumaryu just put his knee on the clay out of charity?

I suppose the winning technique 7-ball corner pocket ruy lopez three-pointer bases loaded homer up-and-under leg before wicket elfmeter 7-10 split (in kanji).

Azumaryu put his knee down in the process of driving Enho into the ground. Enho had nothing to do with making that happen. The Oyakata said that knee was after Enho touched. Dubious, but close.

If you do nothing to win a match you can hardly be surprised when you don't get a close call against the guy that was literally flinging you around the entire match and then flung you into the ground.

 

For my money the match was over the moment Azumaryu caused the back of Enho's heel to touch. And make no mistake. Azumaryu driving Enho down is what caused that. It was not a  move Enho executed. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Rocks

[Kaminariyuki 495]

19 minutes ago, Rocks said:

 

If you do nothing to win a match you can hardly be surprised when you don't get a close call against the guy that was literally flinging you around the entire match and then flung you into the ground.

 

 

Well, I can see the dead body argument, but the statement above is a gross exaggeration. Watch it again, the fist flinging around was by Enho and then he backed Azumaryu up almost to the hay twice. The last 10 seconds was all the big guy, I concede. Additionally, the back of Enho's heel did not touch first. He clearly lifted his leg from the clay. Azumaryu's knee touched first, at least it looked that way to me. I am a partisan Enho fan, of course. 

Gyoji's seem to be having trouble this basho. Very strange not-a-matta call earlier on Day 9, and some days the Gyojis are having a difficult time staying on the dohyo, even if nobody touches them.

[robnplunder 972]

16 minutes ago, Thundersnow said:

 

Gyoji's seem to be having trouble this basho. Very strange not-a-matta call earlier on Day 9, and some days the Gyojis are having a difficult time staying on the dohyo, even if nobody touches them.

There is hardly any matta calls and rikishi are blatantly going about it.   I paid more attention to Gyoji's movements after one fall off the ring and see them getting in the way of match.   

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,151]

4 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

There is hardly any matta calls and rikishi are blatantly going about it.   I paid more attention to Gyoji's movements after one fall off the ring and see them getting in the way of match.   

I wonder if it's because of the time crunch from the typhoon and resulting electrical issues in chiba.

[Rainoyama 1,157]

24 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Google translate is brutal here but it sure seems to suggest that the ruling was Enho touched first. 

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20190916-00000027-mai-spo

People want to argue Enho didn't touch first that's fine. But Dead Body didn't seem to enter into it.  

My translation on the fly, not perfect but still better than google translate hopefully aha

Sumo Aki basho day 9, lightest sekitori 98 kg Enho loses to returning to Makuuchi after five years Azumaryu following a mono-ii, third staight loss from day 7 for Enho who is now 5-4.

Facing the 1,91m tall  Azumaryu, 23 cm taller than him, Enho managed to get his favourite left shitate grip, "Let's be relentless and really get to really get into it " thought Enho at that moment. He then proceeded to get a right maemitsu and started a yori attack from a low stance.

However, Azumaryu who managed to get a right outside grip from above Enho's shoulder started to move around, following that pressure from Azumaryu and his nage attempts, Enho was forced to redress his upper body. As Azumaryu started to fall on him, he attempted a last ditch counter attack by attempting a twisting throw attempt from his favourite left grip.

The gyoji raised his gunbai towards Enho but a monoii ensued and it was decided that Enho's body fell first and the call was overturned resulting in a loss for Enho.

Enho himself accepted the loss "My body turned over, it's my loss. I was poor today

The losing steak continues for now "Will I continue to fall apart like that ? From now on it's do or die"  he commented "I have to believe in myself. I'll be back again tomorow and I'll do my best"

 

[robnplunder 972]

14 minutes ago, Rainoyama said:

My translation on the fly, not perfect but still better than google translate hopefully aha

Sumo Aki basho day 9, lightest sekitori 98 kg Enho loses to returning to Makuuchi after five years Azumaryu following a mono-ii, third staight loss from day 7 for Enho who is now 5-4.

Facing the 1,91m tall  Azumaryu, 23 cm taller than him, Enho managed to get his favourite left shitate grip, "Let's be relentless and really get to really get into it " thought Enho at that moment. He then proceeded to get a right maemitsu and started a yori attack from a low stance.

However, Azumaryu who managed to get a right outside grip from above Enho's shoulder started to move around, following that pressure from Azumaryu and his nage attempts, Enho was forced to redress his upper body. As Azumaryu started to fall on him, he attempted a last ditch counter attack by attempting a twisting throw attempt from his favourite left grip.

The gyoji raised his gunbai towards Enho but a monoii ensued and it was decided that Enho's body fell first and the call was overturned resulting in a loss for Enho.

Enho himself accepted the loss "My body turned over, it's my loss. I was poor today

The losing steak continues for now "Will I continue to fall apart like that ? From now on it's do or die"  he commented "I have to believe in myself. I'll be back again tomorow and I'll do my best"

 

Arigato. Initially, I thought Azumaryu won.  After slow motion replay, I though Enho won. I still think he won but  It was pretty close.   

Predictable crowd pleasing answers from Enho ... but I wish he'd yell out sometime  "I am doing my best with the given body size I have.   What else do you expect?"  

[Rainoyama 1,157]

A few stories from today starting with Sekiwake Takakeisho who only needs three more wins to get back to ozeki following his win against Tamawashi "It was quite a violent bout so I don't remember much. My opponent was hitting hard so I was thinking about not losing. I moved forward and got the win which is not bad. It feels like one more day in the books with a positive outcome" On needing only three more wins to get back to Ozeki and on being firmly in the yusho race following Okinoumi's loss "It doesn't matter. What matters is to do its best every day" https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201909160000774.html

M2W Asanoyama also remains firmly in the race following is impressive win over Abi. When asked how did manage to win that one he answered "To be honest I don't really understand myself, I'll check when I get home. My body moved well and I was composed. My legs and lower body were solid so I managed to stay in" Just like Takakeisho he didn't want to talk about the yusho race "I don't think anything about what's in the future. I just want to keep following what I've always been taught by my master: it's ok to lose, what's important is to take good care of its body and always attack forward" https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201909160000747.html

[Rainoyama 1,157]

Found one more interesting story:  Sekiwake Mitakeumi is also in the race following his win against 'hatakikomi specialist' Tomokaze.

"I taught him that with a body like his, he'd be much more dangerous attacking forward [instead of pulling]" reflected Mitakeumi (I agree with him but 9 of Tomokaze's 10 most recent wins were via Hatakikomi and he beat some serious guys. Not pretty but effective...)

On not getting consecutive losses so far this basho "That's a point of emphasis from me yes. I hope it continues" Mitakeumi has been in sanyaku for 16 consecutive basho (2nd place in history) but only managed to avoid consecutive losses one time - the only time he managed to get double digits- his yusho in Nagoya last year...https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201909160000823.html

[Asashosakari 17,637]

12 hours ago, kuroimori said:

The only one who can stop it - even if both rikishi agree it might be a matta - is the gyoji, so hats off to sharp minded Takagenji. He needs every win, no matta how he gets it. 

Agreed. Blatant false start by Takagenji, of course, but for Tsurugisho I can only say the same thing I did back when Harumafuji got blindsided like that: If you commit to the match by moving forward from the crouch, don't then expect that you'll still be allowed to stop fighting. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Asashosakari

[Jakusotsu 5,294]

48 minutes ago, Rainoyama said:

Just like Takakeisho he didn't want to talk about the yusho race "I don't think anything about what's in the future. I just want to keep following what I've always been taught by my master: it's ok to lose, what's important is to take good care of its body and always attack forward"

Asanoyama would would be tying Kotonishiki's record of winning a hiramaku yusho twice, only without a seven year gap in between.

[WAKATAKE 2,450]

1 hour ago, Jakusotsu said:

Asanoyama would would be tying Kotonishiki's record of winning a hiramaku yusho twice, only without a seven year gap in between.

Which I believe is also the record for for Yoshi gap by any rikishi, Yokozuna or not

[since_94 647]

10 hours ago, Rocks said:

Azumaryu put his knee down in the process of driving Enho into the ground. Enho had nothing to do with making that happen. The Oyakata said that knee was after Enho touched. Dubious, but close.

If you do nothing to win a match you can hardly be surprised when you don't get a close call against the guy that was literally flinging you around the entire match and then flung you into the ground.

 

For my money the match was over the moment Azumaryu caused the back of Enho's heel to touch. And make no mistake. Azumaryu driving Enho down is what caused that. It was not a  move Enho executed. 

I agree that while Enho was robbed by that call, he didn’t deserve to win the match. The second half was all Azamaryu, who was totally in the drivers seat and the one on the offensive. Enho was second to touch the ground by fluke—lucky happenstance only—not by anything he did to control the outcome. It was totally out of his control by that point, because he had been bested. Anyway, bad call, tough call, but I don’t feel bad for him on account of the monoii. Them’s the breaks.

On a somewhat related note, reading all the melts from Tochinoshin’s (mostly Georgian) supporters standing up for him after the Ozeki’s rather cheap and desperate henka on day 9 was absolutely hilarious. I’m a huge Tochinoshin fan, by the way, but I’ll still call it what it was. All that online blustering made my day.

[UncleMoustache 40]

Just plain old crappy judging today.  Surely one of the 6 judges there could have called that obvious matta.

And surely that Enho bout could have at least been a redo.

Crappy judging all around.

[Rainoyama 1,157]

Very moved by Terao talking about his brother on NHK, you can see how much he loved him.

[WAKATAKE 2,450]

Today's win is one that Kaisho will remember for some time to come, as he defeated Kaisei down in Juryo. Until last basho, Kaisho had served as Kaisei's tsukebito. 

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201909170000392.html

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

12 hours ago, Rocks said:

Azumaryu put his knee down in the process of driving Enho into the ground. Enho had nothing to do with making that happen. The Oyakata said that knee was after Enho touched. Dubious, but close.

If you do nothing to win a match you can hardly be surprised when you don't get a close call against the guy that was literally flinging you around the entire match and then flung you into the ground.

 

For my money the match was over the moment Azumaryu caused the back of Enho's heel to touch. And make no mistake. Azumaryu driving Enho down is what caused that. It was not a  move Enho executed. 

It was a tsukihiza loss by Azumaryu. Doesn't matter who is the aggressor or initiates a throw. It's one of the five hiwaza causing a loss, just the same as ishamiashi, an inadvertent step-out. You can win the tachiai, drive your opponent straight back, be in complete control of the match to the tawara, and then lose putting a toe over. Sucks, but thems the rules.

[Joaoiyama 286]

Tsurugisho has become one of my favorites, he is very smart and always has the right answer for adversity.

[Andreas21 172]

12 hours ago, Rocks said:

The Oyakata said that knee was after Enho touched. Dubious, but close.

Thank you for the attempted translation. I also wondered if it was a Shinitai decision but apparently it wasn't. So it's clear as crystal: the Oyataka have seen something before Azumaryu's knee touched the ground. I trust that they did not overlook Azumaryu's knee at all.

My guess is that it was Enho's foot. It was in a twisted position and arguably did not touch the ground with only the sole at some point. Maybe the heel of the left foot just before it was raised skywards.

[lackmaker 417]

2 hours ago, since_94 said:

 Enho was second to touch the ground by fluke—lucky happenstance only—

 

Can't really agree. He is the only person I could imagine keeping himself up like that for that long. Therefore not a lucky move but part of his repertoire.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Nice to Ikioi get his kachikoshi in juryo today.