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New Takanofuji Scandal

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30 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

No, they are contesting the blemish and will fight to let him stay with his honor and name intact。As I understand, it's just a formality- Akinomaki said it much better: 'That's the old samurai tradition: an order to voluntarily commit seppuku and keep your honor and the benefits for you family, or get executed in shame if you refuse". As I wrote at the very start- complicated.  Even more complicated is what Shibatayama said-  "He's still young. so the rijikai has shown some sympathy.."  which hints at a possibility that he may survive this, though I highly doubt it personally. There's also the Compliance committee-it looks like the rijikai wants it to be seen that they have real power, as the rijikai is essentially leaving everything to them, when they convene again to discuss this hot potato delivered to their doorstep.

Even if the Shibatayama comment opens a 1% chance of survival, Takanofuji holding an independent press conference with legal spooks completely closed that small hole anyway.

 

I feel really bad for those who had to take responsibility for these morons. It's not even over with Takanofuji, highly likely just to happen again with how unaware these guys seem to be.

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23 hours ago, Kaioshoryu said:

This is an extremely interesting peek into a world so foreign to my modern western form of life. They navigate by a different moral compass than me, and I feel that me passing judgement on their behaviour would be wrong. 

When I saw my first sumo bout many years ago, one thing stood out. In many sports in the USA, the winner often celebrates his victory in ways I find to be disgraceful. Apparently, winning is not enough. You are almost expected to openly make sure to everyone of the fact that you did. 

But sumo was different. The winner squatted down and accepted his awards without any show of emotion. The loser bowed, also with no expression whatsoever. Once they were off the dohyo, they both bowed and left. Compared to my previous experience watching sports competition, I found this behavior to be amazingly civiilized. It reminded me of the legal phrase, "res ipsa loquitur" which translates to "the thing speaks for itself". In other words, there was a contest with a winner and a loser. That's all that mattered. This was a sport of gentlemen. I never questioned this basic concept. I actually think it's the best way by far to conduct competiton.

But over the years, being from a totally different culture, I could never understand some of the thoughts behind it. One was of course, the way higher ranking rikishis and oyakatas were allowed to physically abuse lower ranking trainees. Another was the way serious injury was sometimes  treated. Instead of getting the best treatment possible resulting in a possible severe loss of rank while recuperating, some injuries were allowed to heal with little or no treatment. I'm sure that way of thinking destroyed several promising careers. I wish they would bring back the kosho seido system where if a rikishi is injured during a honbasho, he can keep his rank if he is unable to compete in the following one. That seems perfectly fair. And I still can't figure out why women are not allowed on the dohyo, even when they could be of help in a medical emergency. I'm sure all these instances make some sort of sense to traditionalists who run sumo. They certainly have reasons for feeling the way they do. I just have no idea what they are.

There are other "off the dohyo" things about sumo I can't begin to comprehend. This undoubtedly has to do with my total lack of familiarity with a foreign culture. If I have to give a grade for these aspects of sumo, this is what they would be:

Sumo as a spectator activity---A+

Other "behind the scenes" aspects of sumo--no grade. I can't rate something I don't understand. :-S

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Given all the detail reports posted by fellow forum members, intai for Takanofuji seems to be the right call.   A bully can't alter his way easily, if ever.   The beya will benefit from his absence as it rebuilds its reputation.   All eyes on Takagenji.  Hopefully, he learns to be a man, not a bully.

Edited by robnplunder

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Takanofuji held a press conference at - the monkasho!!  - the ministry of Ed-Sc-Cul-Spo ...

because even his oyakata wants him out and he can't consult with him - so he has to consult with his lawyers.

They apparently taught him the importance to show repentance and apologize, so he gambarized to do that in public.

https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2019/09/27/0012738365.shtml

But he soon switched to blame others again: the NSK courses against violence were useless - they didn't give any alternative how to discipline the insolent tsukebito in other ways than by the traditional violence

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201909270000303.html

and he thought a simple knock on the head would still be ok https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201909270000296.html

His lawyer(s) called the penalty socially inappropriate and declared that they are ready to go to court https://hochi.news/articles/20190926-OHT1T50262.html

I guess a quite full coverage will be in the wide shows.

Edited by Akinomaki
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Not surprising. With these types of people, they are never wrong. I worked with some people like that at my last job in Japan, it's the reason why I decided that enough was enough for me. The job I did was never satisfactory for the supervisors and everything was always my fault. The week after I left their workload tripled. This guy really needs to show humility and be thankful that he was even given a second chance. So unfortunate.

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一連の暴行騒動に対する日本相撲協会の事実上の引退勧告に対し会見に臨む貴ノ富士(撮影・小沢裕)

Akinomaki summed it up already on the post above, but more details and quotes from the press conference.
 

"I deeply regret using violence and I'm reflecting on my actions. I couldn't guide my juniors with words and raised my hand instead which I should'nt have done. If it's even possible to be forgotten, I'd like to apologize to the tsukebito. I respect my Oyakata and the Kyokai and I am truly sorry to have caused such an embarassement."

"The punishment is too harsh I can't accept it. I've entered the sumo world since I was in middle school, to me there's only sumo. My wish is to reflect deeply on my foolish acts and come back to the dohyo to devote myself to sumo"

"If the kyokai forgives me I'd like to go to the tsukebito's home to apologize to them. No only for the violence but for the discriminative remarks. I am truly sorry." He also admited the whole chicken nickname thing and apologized for that too.

As reported by Akinomaki above he criticized the kyokai for not giving any alternative to violence "the lectures on not using violence didn't work because the Kyokai didn't gave us any other alternative to discipline"

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9 minutes ago, Rainoyama said:
一連の暴行騒動に対する日本相撲協会の事実上の引退勧告に対し会見に臨む貴ノ富士(撮影・小沢裕)

"The punishment is too harsh I can't accept it. I've entered the sumo world since I was in middle school, to me there's only sumo. My wish is to reflect deeply on my foolish acts and come back to the dohyo to devote myself to sumo"

Chuckle.     In real world ("civilized" one at that), what he did was an assault, and can land him jail.   Where I worked, it'd get him immediately fired, no questions asked, no second chance given.   He forgot he is an adult now and needs to mentally grow up first.   That is more important, IMO, than pursuing his sumo career.   

Edited by robnplunder

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The whole press conference - 46 min.

Edited by Akinomaki
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1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

Chuckle.     In real world ("civilized" one at that), what he did was an assault, and can land him jail.   Where I worked, it'd get him immediately fired, no questions asked, no second chance given.   He forgot he is an adult now and needs to mentally grow up first.   That is more important, IMO, than pursuing his sumo career.   

But this isn’t the "real" world. This is peanuts compared to what goes on on a daily basis at some heyas. Things get reported outside only when someone complains. Most of the guys entering know what they are getting into, some find it to be much more difficult than expected. It's sumo, that's how it's been from the start. It's the Marines. It's boot camp. In all of these, these days, you can't get away with doing stuff you could easily have gotten away with some years ago. Still, some things you can still get away with, as long as no one talks. I know of one potentially big scandal that was quashed in the bud a few years back. We don't know a fraction of what goes on, good or bad. I find all this tsk tsking to be very funny. We are sumo fans. We know how it is. Guy caught? Punish him. But don't act as if this is synchronized swimming.

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3 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

But don't act as if this is synchronized swimming.

Not sure about synchronzied swimming, but for what I know I do not think Sumo fares much better bullying-wise compared to some ballet schools, for example.. On the other hand, times are changing, in some regions slower than in others. Good to see that Sumo is keeping track. And besides I guess it is more difficult to hush things up nowadays with smart phones everywhere and Internet than it was in the past.

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3 minutes ago, Flohru said:

Not sure about synchronzied swimming, but for what I know I do not think Sumo fares much better bullying-wise compared to some ballet schools, for example.. On the other hand, times are changing, in some regions slower than in others. Good to see that Sumo is keeping track. And besides I guess it is more difficult to hush things up nowadays with smart phones everywhere and Internet than it was in the past.

Exactly, and that is exactly why I didn’t use the usual "This isn't ballet" thingy..

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3 hours ago, Rainoyama said:
 

"If the kyokai forgives me I'd like to go to the tsukebito's home to apologize to them

Why bother with decency if it's not going to help you, am I right? Way to prove it's all an act. This guy isn't the sharpest tool, is he?

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51 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

Why bother with decency if it's not going to help you, am I right? Way to prove it's all an act. This guy isn't the sharpest tool, is he?

He is a 22 years old dumb kid, the lawyer is the one who writes the script for him.

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23 minutes ago, Rainoyama said:

He is a 22 years old dumb kid, the lawyer is the one who writes the script for him.

That indirectly confirms my rhetorical question either way.

Even so, this is not going to be pretty. He'll be making enough of a fuss to shake the entire thing. Up until a few years ago I believe he'd just disgrace himself to a ridiculous level, but nowadays all that press coverage might force the kyokai to stiffen up again.

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36 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

That indirectly confirms my rhetorical question either way.

Even so, this is not going to be pretty. He'll be making enough of a fuss to shake the entire thing. Up until a few years ago I believe he'd just disgrace himself to a ridiculous level, but nowadays all that press coverage might force the kyokai to stiffen up again.

Shake the entire thing? I really don't understand how he is going to show the kyokai is acting in bad faith here. The kyokai made a violence committee, took their public stance on that, and this incident became public. It's also the 2nd incident for this particular guy. The kyokai would look way worse if they were defending him and keeping him on despite the reports if violence. 

 

I understand kintamayama that there's worse incidents, but to be real, those are not known and this is. That's what matters whether it is fair or not. Maybe Takanofuji s lawyers leak the other incidents if he gets barred but all that's going to happen is those guys get kicked out, not Takanofuji gets to come back. The basho still sell out and there's a lot of kensho despite the Takanohana thing, so I don't think the kyokai is going to blink here.

Unless I completely missing some dynamic at play?

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2 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

Why bother with decency if it's not going to help you, am I right? Way to prove it's all an act. This guy isn't the sharpest tool, is he?

The verb he used can mean either "to forgive" or "to permit/to allow" . So an alternative translation would be "If the Kyokai will allow it, I'd like to go to the deshi's homes to apologize." I'm just pulling from the articles, not the video though. While he's undoubtedly an ass, and I think the sumo world will be better off without him, I wouldn't read too much into that one sentence. 

Edited by Tochinofuji
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23 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Shake the entire thing? I really don't understand how he is going to show the kyokai is acting in bad faith here. The kyokai made a violence committee, took their public stance on that, and this incident became public. It's also the 2nd incident for this particular guy. The kyokai would look way worse if they were defending him and keeping him on despite the reports if violence. 

 

I understand kintamayama that there's worse incidents, but to be real, those are not known and this is. That's what matters whether it is fair or not. Maybe Takanofuji s lawyers leak the other incidents if he gets barred but all that's going to happen is those guys get kicked out, not Takanofuji gets to come back. The basho still sell out and there's a lot of kensho despite the Takanohana thing, so I don't think the kyokai is going to blink here.

Unless I completely missing some dynamic at play?

I might have exaggerated a bit with "shake the entire thing". :P It's more like that the public are going to take a closer look at kyokai's movements for the upcoming months if a shitstorm is born out of this.

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57 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

 

Unless I completely missing some dynamic at play?

No, you got it right.

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1 hour ago, Tochinofuji said:

The verb he used can mean either "to forgive" or "to permit/to allow" . So an alternative translation would be "If the Kyokai will allow it, I'd like to go to the deshi's homes to apologize." I'm just pulling from the articles, not the video though. While he's undoubtedly an ass, and I think the sumo world will be better off without him, I wouldn't read too much into that one sentence. 

That's probably "to allow" in that case, it was my mistake.

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8 minutes ago, Rainoyama said:

That's probably "to allow" in that case, it was my mistake.

I hope my comment wasn't taken as critical in any way, as I greatly appreciate all the article posting and translating you do for the forum! And to be fair, Takanofuji does seem like enough of a dolt to have meant "if they let me stay, I'll apologise to chickens 1, 2, and 3.", so your initial version may be spot on. 

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1 minute ago, Tochinofuji said:

I hope my comment wasn't taken as critical in any way, as I greatly appreciate all the article posting and translating you do for the forum! And to be fair, Takanofuji does seem like enough of a dolt to have meant "if they let me stay, I'll apologise to chickens 1, 2, and 3.", so your initial version may be spot on. 

On the contrary ! I offer my translation but it's never perfect so it's always good if someone can correct my mistakes or add things I forgot to mention. There's actually no way to tell for sure apart from the context you're right ."Allow" makes way more sense so I still think it was my mistake but it probably was a poor choice of word from him if there's a debate about it. Well japanese is not my first language so maybe it's clear enough for japanese people ?

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A simple-minded question to those who have knowledge about hazing, bullying, etc in heyas: regardless of the severity of things that happen, how much of the „predator‘s“ attitude makes a difference ? If the impression is, he puts others down to elevate his own ego versus he genuinely (not rightfully) believes punishment is due to „assist“ them in becoming better ? Is that a factor ?

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Chris Gould's translation and take on the press conference.

 

Edited by Rainoyama

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9 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

But this isn’t the "real" world. This is peanuts compared to what goes on on a daily basis at some heyas. Things get reported outside only when someone complains. Most of the guys entering know what they are getting into, some find it to be much more difficult than expected. It's sumo, that's how it's been from the start. It's the Marines. It's boot camp. In all of these, these days, you can't get away with doing stuff you could easily have gotten away with some years ago. Still, some things you can still get away with, as long as no one talks. I know of one potentially big scandal that was quashed in the bud a few years back. We don't know a fraction of what goes on, good or bad. I find all this tsk tsking to be very funny. We are sumo fans. We know how it is. Guy caught? Punish him. But don't act as if this is synchronized swimming.

Some random thoughs:

But even in this Disneyland, a repeat offender is just too dumb to be ignored.  And he can't have both ways, get caught twice and still come back to sumo?   

Going to the legal route is a part of ozumo tradition?   

Imagine how many more young prospects would join the sumo world if there is no fear of such abuses. 

Japanese people's strength of hanging on to tradition, unchanging ways is also its weakness.   This is just one tiny instance of that.  

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34 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

But even in this Disneyland, a repeat offender is just too dumb to be ignored.  And he can't have both ways, get caught twice and still come back to sumo?   

 Imagine how many more young prospects would join the sumo world if there is no fear of such abuses. 

I agree he has no place in sumo. And I don't think even one more young prospect would join the sumo world if there were no fear of such abuses.  Promising youngsters are not joining sumo because it's a difficult life, there's no money in it compared to other sports, regardless of possible and pretty much expected forms of  physical abuse. Most of today's recruits are made up of college graduates, problematic kids sent to a quasi-military organization in the hopes of straightening them out, high school dropouts, and a small percentage of kids who have a dream. Regrettably.  

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