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Nagoya 2019 Discussion (here be spoilers)

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

he will be denied the ichidai toshiyori status

It would be great if someone with more knowledge of sumo and Japanese society as a whole comment could on this.

From my naive and ignorant viewpoint it seems absurd that they could deny him that (modulo his acquiring Japanese citizenship).

EDIT: the 'more' above means more than me. I didn't mean to imply that I wanted someone more knowledgeble than Akinomaki

Edited by autotroph

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Yesterday we saw a rare Day 13 kinboshi, but Kotoshogiku's win today is only the 6th kinboshi to be won on Day 14, and the first to happen away from the Kokugikan(s).
 

Basho		Winner		Rank	Yokozuna

1973 Aki	Onishiki	M11w	Kotozakura
1974 Aki	Ryuko		M9w	Kitanoumi
1975 Hatsu	Mienoumi	M6w	Wajima
1984 Aki	Konishiki	M6w	Chiyonofuji
2017 Hatsu	Takanoiwa	M10e	Hakuho
2019 Nagoya	Kotoshogiku	M5e	Hakuho

 

Meanwhile, this is Kotoshogiku's third kinboshi since losing his Ozeki rank, drawing him level with Mitsuneyama for most kinboshi won by a former Ozeki. Overall it is the 17th such kinboshi.
 

Basho		Day	Winner		Rank	Yokozuna

1933 Natsu	4	Noshirogata	M1w	Tamanishiki
1949 Natsu	6	Shionoumi	M2w	Azumafuji
1952 Aki	5	Nayoroiwa	M3w	Chiyonoyama
1957 Hatsu	7	Mitsuneyama	M2e	Kagamisato
1957 Natsu	2	Mitsuneyama	M6e	Kagamisato
"	"	7	Ouchiyama	M1e	Tochinishiki
1957 Aki	3	Mitsuneyama	M2e	Chiyonoyama
1976 Haru	12	Kaiketsu	M1e	Kitanoumi
2002 Kyushu	5	Takanonami	M1e	Musashimaru
2003 Hatsu	7	Dejima		M3w	Takanohana
2003 Nagoya	4	Takanonami	M3e	Musashimaru
2007 Hatsu	3	Dejima		M1w	Asashoryu
2007 Haru	2	Miyabiyama	M3e	Asashoryu
2008 Aki	3	Miyabiyama	M1w	Asashoryu
2017 Aki	3	Kotoshogiku	M1w	Harumafuji
2018 Hatsu	4	Kotoshogiku	M2w	Kisenosato
2019 Nagoya	14	Kotoshogiku	M5e	Hakuho

 

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28 minutes ago, autotroph said:

It would be great if someone with more knowledge of sumo and Japanese society as a whole comment could on this.

From my naive and ignorant viewpoint it seems absurd that they could deny him that (modulo his acquiring Japanese citizenship).

First, I don't know many people more knowledgeable than Akinomaki. Second, he does say the tabloids are writing this, so until someone with more "meat" than the tabloids brings this up, it's a moot subject.

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38 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

But I could well see Hakuho never becoming Rijikaicho.

That is pretty much a given since he is not Japanese. Kisenosato will have that position some day. 

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2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

Sorry to bring this up at this stage in the game, but on day 13, Hakuho took down Myogiryu in the way that other sekitori were trying to do against Enho, i.e., with a strangle hold on his neck from behind his head.  The kimarite announced was kotenage, but Hiro Morita kept "hearing" and saying kubinage.  Watching the replay, I was inclined to agree with Hiro-san on this one.  Although Hakuho did have his left arm under Myogiryu's right upper arm, his right arm was around Myogiryu's throat, and all the force in the nage throw descended on Myogiryu's head (there was no arm bar involved).  Anyone else feel that this kimarite should have be reviewed and revised?  

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Kishinoyama said:

That is pretty much a given since he is not Japanese. Kisenosato will have that position some day. 

Yeah, that seems to be my impression as well.  They've got about 9 years left of Hakkaku and then after him there won't be any other Japanese Yokozuna available unless Kisenosato is ready by then, which could be the case, but he'd still be rather young.  I guess they could stop-gap with Kaio, who was just about as close as you can get to Yokozuna without getting promoted.  We'll have to see how fast Araiso gets support for the higher ranks of the NSK once he gets enough seniority.  He seems extremely well-liked by everyone, if only for being a Japanese Yokozuna when those are starting to get very scarce.

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1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

(because of all this NSK disliked behavior, tabloids assume he will be denied the ichidai toshiyori status)

I don't see how they deny him.  But he may emulate Chiyonofuji , deny it, and purchase one instead. He'll never be chairman. He will end up similar to Takanohana in relation to the sumo association I think. Just not as big a thorn in their sides.

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32 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I don't see how they deny him.  But he may emulate Chiyonofuji , deny it, and purchase one instead. He'll never be chairman. He will end up similar to Takanohana in relation to the sumo association I think. Just not as big a thorn in their sides.

I don't see Hakuho as ever having the ... humility? reserve? ... to make smooth with the upper ranks of the NSK.  Mostly because he's the GOAT, and he's not Japanese.  I can see him in a meeting getting lectured by some ex-M5 oyakata, and replying "Say, that reminds me of an incident during my 37th yusho ... "

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46 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I don't see how they deny him.  But he may emulate Chiyonofuji , deny it, and purchase one instead. He'll never be chairman. He will end up similar to Takanohana in relation to the sumo association I think. Just not as big a thorn in their sides.

I agree with that 100% he's going to be Takanohana II

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1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

Yeah, that seems to be my impression as well.  They've got about 9 years left of Hakkaku and then after him there won't be any other Japanese Yokozuna available unless Kisenosato is ready by then, which could be the case, but he'd still be rather young.  I guess they could stop-gap with Kaio, who was just about as close as you can get to Yokozuna without getting promoted.  We'll have to see how fast Araiso gets support for the higher ranks of the NSK once he gets enough seniority.  He seems extremely well-liked by everyone, if only for being a Japanese Yokozuna when those are starting to get very scarce.

My impression is that ex-Musoyama is being groomed for those stopgap years, at least by his own ichimon. I don't know how he's looked at outside of Dewanoumi though, but then the group may have sufficient strength in numbers to push him through regardless.

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With the risk of sounding like a broken record, this basho the whole generation change feeling is catching up with me. I know it's been talked about in this forum for the past two years or so, and I agree that the change could probably be felt much earlier. But on a personal level it's really hitting me this basho - Aminishiki retiring, Yoshikaze, Kaisei and Tochiozan heading to Juryo. Those are the guys I've gotten used to seeing in Makuuchi for years and years, and now they're dropping at once. With that in mind, Toyonoshima being on the verge of a kachikoshi is a major miracle. The remaining old guard can now be counted on the fingers of one hand (I'm not counting Hakuho, he'll probably be Yokozuna at 100 years old, popping up from cryosleep for one basho per year and taking the zensho yusho). 

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18 minutes ago, dingo said:

With the risk of sounding like a broken record, this basho the whole generation change feeling is catching up with me. I know it's been talked about in this forum for the past two years or so, and I agree that the change could probably be felt much earlier. But on a personal level it's really hitting me this basho - Aminishiki retiring, Yoshikaze, Kaisei and Tochiozan heading to Juryo. Those are the guys I've gotten used to seeing in Makuuchi for years and years, and now they're dropping at once. With that in mind, Toyonoshima being on the verge of a kachikoshi is a major miracle. The remaining old guard can now be counted on the fingers of one hand (I'm not counting Hakuho, he'll probably be Yokozuna at 100 years old, popping up from cryosleep for one basho per year and taking the zensho yusho). 

Definitely. I wonder if has to do with the fact that they are the last 'generation' to not really be made up of college rikishi. What I'm saying is suddenly a lot of propspects went on to college instead of oosumo and there was like a 4 year buffer period where rikishi who otherwise would've been taking spots in makuuchi were in the classroom.

That said, the college situation didn't really prevent the sudden generational changeover in the early 2000s, 1990s, mid 1980s etc

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2 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

Definitely. I wonder if has to do with the fact that they are the last 'generation' to not really be made up of college rikishi. What I'm saying is suddenly a lot of propspects went on to college instead of oosumo and there was like a 4 year buffer period where rikishi who otherwise would've been taking spots in makuuchi were in the classroom.

That's more because the recruiting from the universities went down significantly for a few years following the more severe restrictions on who can start as makushita tsukedashi in 2001, not because a greater share of talented rikishi suddenly went to university. The influx of collegiates was as high in the mid to late 1990s as it is (again) now.

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1 minute ago, Asashosakari said:

That's more because the recruiting from the universities went down significantly for a few years following the more severe restrictions on who can start as makushita tsukedashi in 2001, not because a greater share of talented rikishi suddenly went to university. The influx of collegiates was as high in the mid to late 1990s as it is (again) now.

I see, hard luck to those in university when all that got changed!

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Now that we have the final day matchups, two rank-and-filers will be taking part in the koreyori sanyaku final three bouts.  That in and of itself is not too surprising, given that all four Ozeki have withdrawn.  However, the fact that Shimanoumi is one of the two designated hiramaku aite (rank-and-file opponents) is rather noteworthy.  This is only his second Top Division tournament, and low and behold, he's fighting Sekiwake Mitakeumi in the second-last bout of the tournament!  I'm going to call that quite an accomplishment.  He has his kachikoshi majority wins, but will victory against the elite Sekiwake secure him a special prize despite the fact that he doesn't have 10 wins?

Unconventional matchup.  But this has the potential of being a pretty good contest.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

I see, hard luck to those in university when all that got changed!

True enough, though objectively nothing but feelings of entitlement (about the "lost" shortcut route) stopped them from simply starting at the bottom. A scant few in those years did do that - Sakaizawa comes to mind, who really didn't seem to be high on anybody's talent radar at the time but still made his way through to the sekitori ranks with little trouble.

Didn't take too long for collegiates to come to grips with the new situation, in any case - nobody really looks down on guys like Hokutofuji or Shodai for having to come up from maezumo rather than Makushita 15 now, but for a while (especially before 2001) taking that route definitely marked a university rikishi as a bit of an oddity.

Edited by Asashosakari

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1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

My impression is that ex-Musoyama is being groomed for those stopgap years, at least by his own ichimon. I don't know how he's looked at outside of Dewanoumi though, but then the group may have sufficient strength in numbers to push him through regardless.

I hope so. He's a good lad.

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16 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

Ishiura called back to do a proper bow after losing a longish bout with Takanofuji.

We eventually learned where he got that from, after the last bout of the day.

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7 hours ago, Thelone said:

So what's the deal with Onosho (and airline food... ok no)? The guy showed great potential in 2017, got injured, and since then has been meandering in the middle of makuuchi and pretty underwhelming to say the least. Did he come back too early from injury, or was it just a lucky first run and he's just where he should be now?

I remember when him and Takakeisho came into makuuchi, people were saying that Takakeisho is the next Toyonoshima and Onosho is ozeki material. The times, they are changing.

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After defeating Hakuho yesterday, I was surprised when Kotoshogiku was not interviewed despite there being about seven minutes left in the NHK broadcast. A wrestler scoring a kinboshi would typically be interviewed in the same situation. I wonder if this is because he is a former Ozeki, and so was not interviewed out of respect for his former status?

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Joaoiyama said:

I remember when him and Takakeisho came into makuuchi, people were saying that Takakeisho is the next Toyonoshima and Onosho is ozeki material. The times, they are changing.

IMHO, the difference between Takakeisho and Onosho is their style of sumo.  Takakeisho perfected his all out push style that not too many opponents can withstand.   Onosho does not have a go to weapon to overcome his stature.  For him to beat various opponents, he needs to think on his feet and apply different techniques/tactics.   It is not effective against joi/sanyuku opponents (well, compare to Takakeisho's push and think later tactic).   

 

Disclosure:  Initially, I thought both Takakeisho & Onosho will top out at a sanyuku spot b/c of their lack of height and reach.  Takakeisho surprised me by fine tuning his one horse strategy, enough to get an Ozeki spot.

Edited by robnplunder

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12 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

After defeating Hakuho yesterday, I was surprised when Kotoshogiku was not interviewed despite there being about seven minutes left in the NHK broadcast. A wrestler scoring a kinboshi would typically be interviewed in the same situation. I wonder if this is because he is a former Ozeki, and so was not interviewed out of respect for his former status?

He declined the interview because he is a former ozeki.

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Win or lose, Hak has been showing a lot of (unnecessary) anger throughout this basho, often showing disdain against fallen opponents.  The guy needs to chill.   Kak to seal his yusho tonight!  

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Probably too late to put up a poll to get a meaningful number of responses, but I wonder how many matches the Jonokuchi playoff will end up taking.  Might the rikishi conspire to keep it going for multiple rounds?

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