Natsu basho 2019 discussions [SPOILERS]

[Benevolance 2,478]

But what would they say? Kakuryu was the sole yokozuna, he showed up everyday (despite an injury?) and was involved in the yusho race until near the end. Mission accomplished. I honestly thought Kakuryu would take this one, but kudos to Asanoyama for his consistency. 

[nukri-nohana 17]

3 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

From what I can glean, on May 27, the YDC gave their verdict on the May tournament saying that the explanations coming from the shimpancho (head judges, esp. Onomatsu) were muddled and insufficient, which caused unnecessary confusion.  Significantly, the incidents in question involved Asanoyama's bouts on Day 11 and Day 13.  

Apparently, they had very little to say about Yokozuna Kakuryu, which I had always assumed was their primary focus/raison d'être.

 

thnks

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,245]

23 hours ago, Suwihuto said:

I'm enjoying the unpredictability, given most of what I've seen since my return to watching the sport is Hakuko destroying everyone. It's almost certain I think that there will be a period of uncertainty until the old boys are finished and a youngster or two can establish themselves.

Looking back at old records, it wouldn't be that big a surprise to me at all for there to be no Dai-Yok for another few years - after all, such rikishi only appear every decade or two don't they?

Nobody seems to be an especially great candidate for the position lately, do they? The whole sanyaku seems to be a poisoned chalice. Any new rikishi reaching there suddenly picks up bad injuries. But maybe that's how it's always been.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

It is interesting to speculate how many yusho Hakuho has left in him.  In the last year and a half, he has only completed three tournaments (3 out of 9, i.e., 33%).  He won two of those three tournaments, in convincing zensho style (i.e., 22% yusho productivity).  We are essentially six tournaments away from the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, but Hakuho has a goal of remaining and possibly winning a yusho at an age older than Chiyonofuji.  So let's say for the sake of argument that he has another nine tournaments before he hangs up his mawashi.  Based on the aforementioned numbers, he could possibly win two more championships, bringing his total up to 44 (not a very auspicious number, 4=shi=death).  Perhaps the bicep injury will reduce his yusho productivity, and leave him with 43 yusho.  Not shabby, but that means there will be quite a few yusho scraps left on the table going forward.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Amamaniac

[nelimw 80]

I'm a newbie to the world of sumo so I'm still learning all the nuance. I thought Aoiyama going easy on takakeisho  would be good since it wouldn't force Takakeisho  to possibly injure himself further? That's how I saw it rather than Aoiyama being weak. Is that a bad take? 

[Katooshu 3,135]

3 hours ago, nelimw said:

I'm a newbie to the world of sumo so I'm still learning all the nuance. I thought Aoiyama going easy on takakeisho  would be good since it wouldn't force Takakeisho  to possibly injure himself further? That's how I saw it rather than Aoiyama being weak. Is that a bad take? 

Not a bad take at all. What uproar (well. maybe that's too strong of a term) there was about the henka was much ado about nothing in my opinion. 

[Eikokurai 3,433]

5 hours ago, Katooshu said:

Not a bad take at all. What uproar (well. maybe that's too strong of a term) there was about the henka was much ado about nothing in my opinion. 

I don’t remember uproar about the henka per se, more his comments that he did it specifically because Takakeisho was injured. It came across – at least as it was translated – like he’d purposely taken advantage of his opponent’s injury to score a cheap victory. Obviously people do that all the time in sumo, but people aren’t usually honest about it!

[Katooshu 3,135]

Maybe he felt he could be open about it because he wasn't targeting the injury in a way that would apply direct force to it and worsen the injury (like Asashoryu kicking Dejima's injured leg). I don't think it was worse than any other henka (not to get into that debate again lol) and I'd think there's a good chance that a straight up match and having to push nearly 200kg would've been more damaging to Takakeisho's knee.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Katooshu

[sekitori 492]

On 28/05/2019 at 16:42, Amamaniac said:

It is interesting to speculate how many yusho Hakuho has left in him.  In the last year and a half, he has only completed three tournaments (3 out of 9, i.e., 33%).  He won two of those three tournaments, in convincing zensho style (i.e., 22% yusho productivity).  We are essentially six tournaments away from the 2020 Tokyo Olympics, but Hakuho has a goal of remaining and possibly winning a yusho at an age older than Chiyonofuji.  So let's say for the sake of argument that he has another nine tournaments before he hangs up his mawashi.  Based on the aforementioned numbers, he could possibly win two more championships, bringing his total up to 44 (not a very auspicious number, 4=shi=death).  Perhaps the bicep injury will reduce his yusho productivity, and leave him with 43 yusho.  Not shabby, but that means there will be quite a few yusho scraps left on the table going forward.

To guess how many tournaments Hakuho will win before he retires is a game we probably all play. But it's really nothing more than conjecture. He could possibly win one or two more. He also may not win any more yushos at all--but even so, 42 is a rather nice number with which to finish a career.  Hakuho is probably the most fierce competitor in sumo and he won't enter a basho unless he's in excellent physical condition. And a Hakuho in good shape has to be favored. In addition, he has something else working for him. It's called "ring sense" meaning that he knows his exact position on the dohyo at all times. Hakuho is human and human beings make mistakes. Those mistakes can turn into losses but having that sense along with amazing talent and agility can sometimes turn a probable loss into a win. The only other rikishi who had that sense to such a degree was Asashoryu. He once almost levitated off the ground when falling, allowing his opponent to touch the dohyo just before he did. 

Some may say that age is catching up to Hakuho, that he's more prone to injury, and that he isn't the same dominant force he has been in the past. They may be correct, but one fact still remains. When he's in good physical condition, he's still the best rikishi around. There is no reason why Hakuho can't win more than one or two more yushos before he finally retires. He's just that good.  Just because an athlete is considered to be "over the hill" doesn't necessarily mean that his career is even close to being finished. Tiger Woods won the Masters after having eight surgeries on his knee and back and not having won a major golf tournament in many years. I doubt if many (or any) rikishis have had so much surgery. Tiger and Hakuho may be past their primes but they are still forces to be reckoned with.

A couple of final statistics. I think these are being very close to correct and if I'm off a ittle bit, I apologize to Wakatake. Hakuho has been in Makunouchi for 90 bashos, but he sat out six of them, making 84 that he actually entered. He won the yusho in half of them, 42. He also "won" (if you could call coming in second "winning") the jun-yusho in 21 bashos. Those figures translate to a record of finishing first or second in a honbasho 75% of the time. When related to sumo, that  figure is absolutely amazing. If it could be translated into one word,  that word would be "greatness".

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by sekitori

[robnplunder 974]

Hak can win more than a few given the current situation.  Simply put, there aren't anyone good enough to challenge "aging" Hakuho.  The young Yokuzuna hopefuls seem to be at least a few years away from maturing into dethroning Hakuho - a rikishi in his mid 30s.   So, we will see a few more years of Hak getting his shares of yusho and other random rikishi getting a yusho here and there.  

[Eikokurai 3,433]

While killing time on the database earlier today I found that Natsu basho had 82 bouts decided by oshidashi – fourth highest of any basho in the modern era. Number one on the list? Haru 2019 with 86. We’re obviously living in a push-and-thrust era.

http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query_bout.aspx?show_form=0&group_by=basho&year=1958.01-2019.05&m=on&rowcount=5&kimarite=34&onlyw1=on

[Joaoiyama 306]

2 hours ago, robnplunder said:

Simply put, there aren't anyone good enough to challenge "aging" Hakuho.

I think there are more than enough good rikishi to challenge him and i feel the next basho Hakuho enters he will face serious adversity.
A lot of young guns around to make the old man feel father time reaching him.

[robnplunder 974]

27 minutes ago, Joaoiyama said:

I think there are more than enough good rikishi to challenge him and i feel the next basho Hakuho enters he will face serious adversity.
A lot of young guns around to make the old man feel father time reaching him.

Not now.  Maybe a few years later.   Until then, Hak will get his share of yusho.   The guy went zensho yusho in his last two yusho.  He'd gotten another yusho in between if he didn't get injured.   He went 40-4 (including 1 fusen pai) in that span.   So, when Hak is healthy, he is still invincible.   

Edited May 30, 2019 by robnplunder

[Joaoiyama 306]

16 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

Not now.  Maybe a few years later.   Until then, Hak will get his share of yusho.   The guy went zensho yusho in his last two yusho.  He'd gotten another yusho in between if he didn't get injured.   He went 40-4 (including 1 fusen pai) in that span.   So, when Hak is healthy, he is still invincible.   

Yes Hakuho will still get some yusho here and there, just not as dominantly as before due to the factor of age, he's old and the prospects are young. 

It's a matter of time before Hakuho gets to fight the top rikishi while they are healthy and getting better by the day, i don't see anymore zensho for him.

[ALAKTORN 346]

4 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

i don't see anymore zensho for him.

When did I hear this before?

My main issue with Hakuhō is his injury. Will he be able to come back at 100%? If not, he’ll obviously not dominate as much.

[Akinomaki 39,784]

Some reports about day 15 at the basho - I don't want to open a 3rd thread, so I put it here:

Asanoyama and Mitakeumi had to wait about 7 min. to start preparing for the bout, and Hokufuji and Ryuden had to wait in position to give them the water of power.

There apparently also was some minor booing and "go home" shouts on entry, but they were drowned in the applause.

There also was one provocative zabuton throw, from the opposite mukou shomen side - it didn't reach to the dohyo and the culprit got away with being cautioned by the police.

The access to the returning rikishi - to get signs and photos - was also blocked that day.

The tickets for the day were cut down to half the usual number, only about 180 were sold - but more than 400 fans had camped in front of the kokugikan overnight.The NSK was merciful and distributed the vouchers to buy tickets at around 4:30 in the morning.

About 1000 seats had been kept unsold at first, but in the end it were only 100 - the rest was sold by some undisclosed way to (registered well known) sumo fans over the last days.

http://www.zakzak.co.jp/spo/news/190527/spo1905270009-n1.html

http://www.sponichi.co.jp/sports/news/2019/05/27/kiji/20190526s00005000488000c.html

Edited May 31, 2019 by Akinomaki

[nukri-nohana 17]

any chance for full article? 

 

Tochinoshin about world cup in rugby

 

https://mainichi.jp/articles/20190530/ddm/035/050/134000c

thanks in advance

[Kintamayama 44,353]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

 

Asanowaka and Mitakeumi had to wait about 7 min. to start preparing for the bout, and Hokufuji and Ryuden had to wait in position to give them the water of power.

 

I think maybe 17 years..

Edited May 30, 2019 by Kintamayama

[robnplunder 974]

11 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

Yes Hakuho will still get some yusho here and there, just not as dominantly as before due to the factor of age, he's old and the prospects are young. 
 

I said that a year ago in this forum and Hak (whom I don't really like) went on to win 2 zensho yusho.   I think he just wanted to spite me for my insolence.    Hak has been declining but the fact that he still is the one to beat says 1) a lot of about Hak, and 2) more about the rest.    When Hak is not in session, anyone can get the yusho which may be fun & exciting for many but it also means there is no one in waiting to replace the likes of Hak (Kak, Haruma, Kise for that matter).  It's rule by committee when Hak & Kak intai.   Maybe, Takakeisho or Tochinoshin but the former is unproven, and the latter is too injury prone (and getting hold himself).   

Edited May 30, 2019 by robnplunder

[Rainoyama 1,157]

Article from Nikkan.  The yokozuna delibaration committee actually complained about something that everybody can actually agree on this time, they asked head judge Oonomatsu to be more precise and accurate during his explanations to the crowd after a monoi.

"It's truly my fault for lacking training" reflected Oonomatsu

Why the hell is he paid to be head judge then ?...

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/201905300000115.html

 

[Akinomaki 39,784]

11 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

I think maybe 17 years..

I think your 2009 retirements put me back there

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

4 hours ago, Rainoyama said:

Article from Nikkan.  The yokozuna delibaration committee actually complained about something that everybody can actually agree on this time, they asked head judge Oonomatsu to be more precise and accurate during his explanations to the crowd after a monoi.

"It's truly my fault for lacking training" reflected Oonomatsu

Why the hell is he paid to be head judge then ?

I've been wondering if at least part of the reason for Onosho's lack of refined sumo is because of poor coaching at his stable. If the stablemaster can't really use his words, then it'll be hard for him to figure out where he needs to improve, and how to do it.

[robnplunder 974]

7 hours ago, Rainoyama said:

Article from Nikkan.  The yokozuna delibaration committee actually complained about something that everybody can actually agree on this time, they asked head judge Oonomatsu to be more precise and accurate during his explanations to the crowd after a monoi.

 

I don't think he can help it.  Rather, I would have advised him to keep it sweet and short.   How hard is it to say, "upon further review, Tochishin's heel touched down first?"  He should practice that in front of a mirror every day.   

Edited May 31, 2019 by robnplunder

[Akinomaki 39,784]

10 minutes ago, robnplunder said:

I don't think he can help it.  Rather, I would have advised him to keep it sweet and short.   How hard is it to say, "upon further review, Tochishin's heel touched down first?"  He should practice that in front of a mirror every day.   

He also again pronounced the wrong side the winner in that announcement - he doesn't even know left and right (east and west)

[Rainoyama 1,157]

3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

He also again pronounced the wrong side the winner in that announcement - he doesn't even know left and right (east and west)

He probably read about people laughing about that and actually made a point to clearly mention east and west in another mono-i (Abi - Meisei day 14) but given the absence of mistake and time he took between each word I believe he was repeating what the voice in his ear was telling him to say...

Edited May 31, 2019 by Rainoyama