Natsu basho 2019 discussions [SPOILERS]

[Catalin B 13]

I "WAAA"'d out loud during Enho's match today.

Had a lot of fun with this basho in spite of the shimpan silliness.

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

That's what I get for only having The Graph as my reference and assuming that where it says "2002" is where the start of 2002 is, not the middle of 2002.  If I had scrolled down further I could have seen that it's clearly labeled January elsewhere.  But it's a big graph and you can't see everything at once.

I do sincerely apologize. The next update will include an extra 10MB of patience that might allow users to assess and understand before allowing conclusions.

On topic: It's years ago, when I mined and transformed the data from the Doitsubase. Nevertheless, I'm quite sure that there were never two or more former yusho winners in Juryo or lower at the same time. Yokozuna are anyway granted to stay in Makuuchi. Former Ozeki used to retire after dropping to Juryo (with only Miyabiyama creating new precedences). Most if not all former yusho winners retired when dropping to Makushita at the latest. Terunofuji is a total, solitary, maverick outlier in this respect.

[nelimw 80]

I find it interesting that the two henka's used this tournament seemed acceptable to the fans at the basho. Aoiyama's henka on Takakeisho seemed like a gracious thing to do due to Taka's injury and what Tochinoshin did... well you all saw the crowd reaction. 

[Benihana 1,901]

18 minutes ago, nelimw said:

I find it interesting that the two henka's used this tournament seemed acceptable to the fans at the basho. Aoiyama's henka on Takakeisho seemed like a gracious thing to do due to Taka's injury and what Tochinoshin did... well you all saw the crowd reaction. 

It all comes down to where, when and who. I applaud both henkas this basho. In the end these henka did no harm to anyone.

A henka where the reactions were completely different was Terunofuji vs. Kotoshogiku, finally killing all hopes for Kotoshogiku's return to Ozeki.

Spoiler

 

One could argue Kotoshogiku blew it the prior days losing to Ikioi and Takarafuji and would be absolutely correct in their assumption. But you don't henka a desparate man, who for many is a hero for breaking the mongolian yusho-streak after so many years. Especially if you yourself are not the best-liked of those yusho-grabbing mongolians.

Aminishiki on the other hand could henka the hell out of juryo. He's popular, always was the wily one, his knees are held together with duct tape and at 40 years of age he deigns to whoop ass instead of sitting on a comfy cushion beside the dohyo.

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

1 hour ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Nevertheless, I'm quite sure that there were never two or more former yusho winners in Juryo or lower at the same time.

I was wrong.

[Rocks 1,807]

1 hour ago, nelimw said:

I find it interesting that the two henka's used this tournament seemed acceptable to the fans at the basho. Aoiyama's henka on Takakeisho seemed like a gracious thing to do due to Taka's injury and what Tochinoshin did... well you all saw the crowd reaction. 

I didn't necessarily find either acceptable. I find Tochi's understandable. You screw a guy and it's hard to expect to to act all honorable the very next day. I definitely disapproved of Aoiyama's. He resorted to that because it was an easy win against a guy with limited motion and he was 2-6 himself. This was no merciful act IMO.  Aoiyama had beat Tamawashi already and went on to beat Giku, Endo, Takayasu and Abi in the next 3. Yet he didn't think with his size and strength he could beat a one legged Takakeisho straight up. Weak. He deserved his 6-9.  When Mitakeumi came back you didn't see anyone try to henka him. Takaysu and Nishikigi even gently walked him out. 

[robnplunder 974]

2 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I didn't necessarily find either acceptable. I find Tochi's understandable. You screw a guy and it's hard to expect to to act all honorable the very next day. I definitely disapproved of Aoiyama's. He resorted to that because it was an easy win against a guy with limited motion and he was 2-6 himself. This was no merciful act IMO.  Aoiyama had beat Tamawashi already and went on to beat Giku, Endo, Takayasu and Abi in the next 3. Yet he didn't think with his size and strength he could beat a one legged Takakeisho straight up. Weak. He deserved his 6-9.  When Mitakeumi came back you didn't see anyone try to henka him. Takaysu and Nishikigi even gently walked him out. 

I don't like henkas when done by Sanyuku members.  But it's legal and almost all rikishi uses it.   Even so, Aoiyama's henka against Takakeisho was  done in poor taste.   He probably could have beaten the injured Takakeisho without henka.   Tochi's henka was more understandable but that doesn't make it any better than Aoiyama's.   Once you give excuses to henkas done by Sanyuku, injured or not, there is no reason to pretend ozumo is a noble, traditional sport.   It's a sport just like any others whose participants are trying win at all cost (or anyway one can).   

[Kotomiyama 165]

A great basho for the beginning of a new imperial era. The future looks nice, once the old guard has retired. Meisei, Mitakeumi, Asanoyama, Takakeisho... are going to give us great moments of sumo.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

Upon reviewing the final day Top Division matchups, I realised that this was the first time in a long, long time (ever?) that all wrestlers (six) with a 7-7 record faced opponents from amongst those striving to get their KKs.  No hint of bout fixing here, just straight up sumo – and the Shohozan v. Enho bout was "the" prime example.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Amamaniac

[bettega 427]

14 minutes ago, Kotomiyama said:

A great basho for the beginning of a new imperial era. The future looks nice, once the old guard has retired. Meisei, Mitakeumi, Asanoyama, Takakeisho... are going to give us great moments of sumo.

I envy your optimism. Right now I only see bad sumo 

[Gurowake 3,922]

11 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Upon reviews the final day Top Division matchups, I realised that this was the first time in a long, long time (ever?) that all wrestlers (six) with a 7-7 record faced opponents from amongst those striving to get their KKs.  No hint of bout fixing here, just straight up sumo – and the Shohozan v. Enho bout was "the" prime example.

A product of the fact they waited until the end of Day 14 to do the Day 15 Makuuchi schedule, due to the yusho race situation.  Usually the Day 15 torikumi is worked out before the Day 14 bouts.

[Amamaniac 2,078]

25 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

38 minutes ago, Amamaniac said:

Upon reviews the final day Top Division matchups, I realised that this was the first time in a long, long time (ever?) that all wrestlers (six) with a 7-7 record faced opponents from amongst those striving to get their KKs.  No hint of bout fixing here, just straight up sumo – and the Shohozan v. Enho bout was "the" prime example.

A product of the fact they waited until the end of Day 14 to do the Day 15 Makuuchi schedule, due to the yusho race situation.  Usually the Day 15 torikumi is worked out before the Day 14 bouts.

Actually, I attribute it more to the fact that all six sekitori were ranked M9 and below.  That way they could be conveniently lumped together.

And still, I don't know if that convenient pairing of all 7-7 wrestlers has happened before.

Edited May 26, 2019 by Amamaniac

[808morgan 805]

On 15/05/2019 at 04:42, Morty said:

He had the look and movements of someone who has thrown his back out. Trust me, I know what that looks like.... @808morgan as a fellow bad back sufferer what did you think?

Yeah it could be, I generally can't move much and just get the the floor and stretch.

[mt fuji 976]

1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

A product of the fact they waited until the end of Day 14 to do the Day 15 Makuuchi schedule, due to the yusho race situation.  Usually the Day 15 torikumi is worked out before the Day 14 bouts.

Is it weird that I really liked that they did this and I think they should do it every basho?

[Ryoshishokunin 261]

38 minutes ago, mt fuji said:

Is it weird that I really liked that they did this and I think they should do it every basho?

They obviously should do it every basho, as it solves a multitude of problems: getting the 7-7s matched up is otherwise down to chance, which leads directly to yaocho issues.  The top-rankers are usually in their round-robin, but just for getting suitable matchups lower down it would make me happy.

[Eikokurai 3,433]

All rikishi arrive at the arena at the same time, so there are no logistical complications preventing them scheduling people as late in the day as they need to. It’s not like football where teams need time to organize travel so need the fixture list far in advance. In fact, they could literally just call rikishi to the ring minutes before their bout. That could be interesting. Someone goes to the east dressing room and calls for one rikishi, someone goes to the west at the same time and calls another, and they only find out who they’re up against when they walk down the aisle and see him coming out the other side. 

Is there a suggestions box at the Kokugikan?

[sekitori 492]

The bad news--Enho was injured and lost his last six bouts, ending up with a make-koshi 7-8. 

The good news--Since he was ranked at M14, he will remain in makunouchi in July.   If Hakuho returns for the Nagoya basho, he will be able to perform the yokozuna dohyo-iri with Enho as an attendant. But since Ishiura will be back in juryo, he won't be.  As the saying goes, "Half a loaf is better than none". 

Edited May 27, 2019 by sekitori

[sahaven111 172]

I didn't expect a yokozuna to receive a henka that badly...

[robnplunder 974]

2 hours ago, sekitori said:

The bad news--Enho was injured and lost his last six bouts, ending up with a make-koshi 7-8. 

He had tough match ups after he got his 7th win, and then the injury sealed his MK.  Still, it was a very successful Makuuchi debut.   Can he consistently repeat this kind of performance and stay in Makuuchi?   That is the question.

Also, I am glad to see Terunofuji going 6-1.   He may return to Makushita as early as the next basho.  He will face tougher challenge.  What I have seen so far, he won't make it to Makuuchi in his current form & progress.  Age is on his side as he is only 27 years old.

[ALAKTORN 346]

On 26/05/2019 at 03:45, Kuroyama said:

His skill is not the issue. It pretty much never is with older rikishi.

That’s pretty nitpicky isn’t it? Just bad English from my part, but you get what I mean.

8 hours ago, Benihana said:

In the end these henka did no harm to anyone.

Are you serious? Tochinoshin’s ruined the yūshō race.

Sad for Enhō not getting kachikoshi. But it’s not like he’ll go down to Jūryō, right?

Edited May 27, 2019 by ALAKTORN

[Eikokurai 3,433]

5 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

That’s pretty nitpicky isn’t it? Just bad English from my part, but you get what I mean.

Are you serious? Tochinoshin’s ruined the yūshō race.

Sad for Enhō not getting kachikoshi. But it’s not like he’ll go down to Jūryō, right?

Odd that you’d complain about Tochinoshin’s henka ruining the yusho race when you know as well as anyone he did it because the result the day before had ruined his yusho race. Also, Kakuryu lost to three other guys, so he ruined his own yusho race quite nicely.

[ALAKTORN 346]

5 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Odd that you’d complain about Tochinoshin’s henka ruining the yusho race when you know as well as anyone he did it because the result the day before had ruined his yusho race. Also, Kakuryu lost to three other guys, so he ruined his own yusho race quite nicely.

1. It is of no fault of Kakuryū that the judging of Tochinoshin’s match was wrong(and was it?).

2. I’ve said previously I didn’t care about that Tochinoshin loss because: 1. I saw his heel out 2. I saw him pull on the oichō-mage (hansoku).

Tochinoshin taking his “rage” out on Kakuryū is disgusting to me.

Edit: Let’s not forget Tochinoshin got a free win. I am appalled by how so many people can so readily excuse his henka, to be honest.

Edited May 27, 2019 by ALAKTORN

[Eikokurai 3,433]

1 hour ago, ALAKTORN said:

1. It is of no fault of Kakuryū that the judging of Tochinoshin’s match was wrong(and was it?).

2. I’ve said previously I didn’t care about that Tochinoshin loss because: 1. I saw his heel out 2. I saw him pull on the oichō-mage (hansoku).

Tochinoshin taking his “rage” out on Kakuryū is disgusting to me.

Edit: Let’s not forget Tochinoshin got a free win. I am appalled by how so many people can so readily excuse his henka, to be honest.

Who said anything about Kakuryu being at fault? The point about him is that he didn’t fail to win because of the Asanoyama-Tochinoshin result or that of his own bout with Tochinoshin. Winning the trophy was entirely in his own hands. A Yokozuna should be able to beat the two maegashira he gave up kinboshi to and if he had, he’d have the yusho regardless of that call or the henka.

As for the rest, it’s evident you don’t particularly like Tochinoshin, which is fine, but it makes you as biased any of his fans, to the extent that you’re now imagining a hairpull that nobody else in the world saw.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Eikokurai

[Eikokurai 3,433]

Just now, Kaninoyama said:

Not to nitpick, but I assume you mean that all of the rikishi from the makuuchi division arrive within the same rough window of time. There is definitely some lag between when those with earlier bouts and those fighting latter bouts arrive. It isn't quite like they wait until everyone's on hand before they begin the proceedings.  

They’re all there for the dohyo-iri which occurs before the bouts have started.

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

4 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

They’re all there for the dohyo-iri which occurs before the bouts have started.

I just deleted my post because I realized this is the case. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Kaninoyama