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Natsu basho 2019 discussions [SPOILERS]

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20 minutes ago, autotroph said:

I agree there are bad referee decisions in every sport. What I meant was that in other sports very bad or controversial decisions have the chance to be addressed by committees, other refs, yadda yadda yadda. For example, in rugby, if a player was to punch another and it was missed during the game, at any time the governing body can review the video evidence and issue a punishment. In sumo, decisions like this are instantly concretised and will now stand until the ice caps melt. There is no recourse or appeal in any way. If the judges are reprimanded it will occur behind closed doors and nothing but rumour or conjecture will reach the surface. That's just the way it is.

Ah, I see what you mean. And I totally agree, best comparison is in the reactions of the competitors. If a call like that had happened in football or tennis or something, they would have argued or complained, but even with as much on the line as he had, Tochinoshin knew there was nothing he could do but bow his head and walk to the back.

For us fans, though, the emotion of watching what seems to be a clear cut travesty of a call is just as painful as it would be in other sports, especially given how people have been rooting for Tochinoshin to get back to ozeki.

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Tochinoshin couldn't put a Maegashira out as an ozeki should? Straight away? Should an ozeki rely on video evidence and shrill nobheads on social media?

Tochinoshin will show he is an ozeki tomorrow, or possibly on Sunday. If he doesn't he isn't an ozeki.

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Nikkan has a little bit of info about Enho's injury (sort of).
When asked in the shitaku-beya about the location of the pain he replied he didn't know the exact specific location..its just hurts from his thigh to his shin. He experienced something 'pull' or 'stretch' whilst he was trying to attempt a throw (sounds like a hamstring injury?):'-(https://www.nikkansports.com/m/battle/sumo/news/201905240000961_m.html?mode=all

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26 minutes ago, autotroph said:

I agree there are bad referee decisions in every sport. What I meant was that in other sports very bad or controversial decisions have the chance to be addressed by committees, other refs, yadda yadda yadda. For example, in rugby, if a player was to punch another and it was missed during the game, at any time the governing body can review the video evidence and issue a punishment. In sumo, decisions like this are instantly concretised and will now stand until the ice caps melt. There is no recourse or appeal in any way. If the judges are reprimanded it will occur behind closed doors and nothing but rumour or conjecture will reach the surface. That's just the way it is.

Discipline is one thing, but in football at least, bad ref calls which impact the score, such as an offside decision, penalty award, or sending off cannot be rectified after the match.  The overall result won't be altered and the qualifying team won't change.  I mean, Maradonna's hand of God (and Thierry Henri's subsequent one) is a prime example...  Sumo is not unique in this.  If anything, sumo was using video technology to assist refereeing way before football was.

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Posted (edited)

Same angle and section of the video footage. Be your own judge:

Spoiler

wA7OpPe.jpg

qZ6A1xm.jpg

U36ktOg.jpg

RzyEx0a.jpg

B081ylK.jpg

 

Edited by Tsubame

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8 minutes ago, Pandaazuma said:

Tochinoshin couldn't put a Maegashira out as an ozeki should? Straight away? Should an ozeki rely on video evidence and ?

Tochinoshin will show he is an ozeki tomorrow, or possibly on Sunday. If he doesn't he isn't an ozeki.

The only thing to say about this is how many times as Hakuho won in the very same manner, dancing on the rice bails and spinning away for the win? Against guys who were nowhere near the yusho lead no less. Was he not an ozeki when that happened? Tochi got the call, the video doesn't dispute it. Lots of shrill nobheads on social media think Goeido is a terrible Ozeki and never should have been made one. That has nothing to do with if he won a single match as it certainly seems Tochinoshin did last night. Putting his opponent out staright away as an ozeki should wasn't what he was asked to do when he mounted the dohyo last night. He was tasked with winning. 

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1 minute ago, Rocks said:

The only thing to say about this is how many times as Hakuho won in the very same manner, dancing on the rice bails and spinning away for the win? Against guys who were nowhere near the yusho lead no less. Was he not an ozeki when that happened? Tochi got the call, the video doesn't dispute it. Lots of shrill nobheads on social media think Goeido is a terrible Ozeki and never should have been made one. That has nothing to do with if he won a single match as it certainly seems Tochinoshin did last night. Putting his opponent out staright away as an ozeki should wasn't what he was asked to do when he mounted the dohyo last night. He was tasked with winning. 

I personally think Goeido has been a good ozeki. He has had his bad times but I have seen worse.

You can't look at sumo on a daily basis. You have to look at it long. And I mean...looooong 

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7 minutes ago, Tsubame said:

RzyEx0a.jpg

To me, there is little to judge. This is right after his heel has come up. The sand is undisturbed. The gyoji is mere feet away, bending and looking directly at the action with an unobstructed view. He makes a quick call that video evidence does not clearly dispute. The call should stand. 

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Just now, Rocks said:

To me, there is little to judge. This is right after his heel has come up. The sand is undisturbed. The gyoji is mere feet away, bending and looking directly at the action with an unobstructed view. He makes a quick call that video evidence does not clearly dispute. The call should stand. 

The judges obviously got it wrong. As usual, you are missing the point.

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Just now, Pandaazuma said:

I personally think Goeido has been a good ozeki. He has had his bad times but I have seen worse.

You can't look at sumo on a daily basis. You have to look at it long. And I mean...looooong 

I think Goeido is just fine.  No great shakes. Marginally above average for an Ozeki IMO.

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Just now, Pandaazuma said:

The judges obviously got it wrong. As usual, you are missing the point.

I totally get your point. I dispute it's relevance. Why shouldn't people be upset when a wrong call is made? Why would I hold Tochinoshin to a higher standard than winning and even if I did why should that matter here?

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Well... I watched right now the day 13th and, when I saw that Monoii was called, I has been rather confident about the victory of Tochinoshin...  In any case, that's it.

I sense that we're living one of those "sport drama" where a mix of demerits, errors and bad luck stop the hero just one millimeter from the glory. I hope not in the end.

If Tochi really deserves the Ozeki rank, Tomorrow (and/or Sunday) will be the moment to show it to all.

And tomorrow Asanoyama has a true chance…

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1 hour ago, Rainoyama said:

Maybe it's just the shadow ?

IMHO that photo and that angle are definitely inconclusive.  That is shadow and nothing more.  As I've posted above, we need an angle from the side (i.e., from where the newspaper photographers sit) that shows heel skin touching sand.  

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5 minutes ago, Rocks said:

I totally get your point. I dispute it's relevance. Why shouldn't people be upset when a wrong call is made? Why would I hold Tochinoshin to a higher standard than winning and even if I did why should that matter here?

You didn't get it all. When you get it, we may encounter each other again.

Until then...see you hopefully soon on week one in Sumo Game! ;)

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Posted (edited)

Does anyone have reaction from Tochinoshin? (I really miss Kintamayama's "Quote of the Day" threads....)

Edited by ryafuji

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Posted (edited)

My opinion about today's bout is exactly the same (Edit: I am not the author, I just found it)

 

tochi.jpg

Edited by Akumazeki
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Thelone said:

Pretty much yeah (and damn you for stealing my "joke").

Oh, sorry, did you beat me to the punch? I had to vent before catching up on the thread.

UPDATE

Sources are telling me that witnesses reported seeing a second Shimpan on a grassy knoll.

Edited by neonbelly
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51 minutes ago, neonbelly said:

Oh, sorry, did you beat me to the punch? I had to vent before catching up on the thread.

UPDATE

Sources are telling me that witnesses reported seeing a second Shimpan on a grassy knoll.

...with an umbrella.

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Is there any official rule that the heel has to actually touch the sand to be considered "out"?

For me, Tochinoshin was stretching the boundaries far enough to warrant a loss, grains of sand notwithstanding, and the majority of judges obviously came to the same conclusion.

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1 minute ago, Jakusotsu said:

Is there any official rule that the heel has to actually touch the sand to be considered "out"?

For me, Tochinoshin was stretching the boundaries far enough to warrant a loss, grains of sand notwithstanding, and the majority of judges obviously came to the same conclusion.

If not by touching the sand, how could he be said to lose?

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1 minute ago, neonbelly said:

If not by touching the sand, how could he be said to lose?

Easy: his heel was shinitai. B-)

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1 minute ago, Jakusotsu said:

Easy: his heel was shinitai. B-)

Pfft, I've seen Harumafuji win yushos with dead ankles on all 15 days.

Tochinoshin should be careful waving his dead knee around the tawara though.

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Posted (edited)

Asanoyama warranted a loss even more. I haven't seen any evidence showing Tochinoshin out (whereas yama did a nice big flop) and I don't see how he should be the loser there, regardless of what someone who is truly an ozeki should be expected to do, or any considerations that go beyond the question of whether his heel was out or not. Besides, in an explosive sport confined to a very small regulation area, a lot of wins are going to be a matter of inches and centimeters; it doesn't make them illegitimate, and 'true' ozeki/yokozuna still have plenty of them. 

Edited by Katooshu
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Well that change.org petition is chugging along like a runaway train. Seems like the bulk of Georgia’s sumo fans are up in arms. Personally I think a public apology by the shimpans is warranted. Not holding my breath though...

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