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Gurowake

Rikishi younger than everyone above them on the banzuke

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Haru 2022:

Y1e Terunofuji 29.11.1991
O1w Takakeisho 05.08.1996
K1w Hoshoryu 22.05.1999
M14e Kotoshoho 26.08.1999
J1e Oho 14.02.2000
J10e Kitanowaka 12.11.2000
J12w Atamifuji 03.09.2002
Ms18w Otsuji 06.10.2003
Sd19w Daihisho 08.11.2003
Sd52e Hokutoiwa 28.11.2003
Sd69w Nishida 24.10.2004
Sd75e Shunrai 10.04.2005
Jd5e Mizuno 02.12.2005
Jd18w Takashoki 09.12.2005
Jd91w Kyokutaiga 28.02.2006

Not much in changes:

Mizuno passes Takashoki, reversing the movement from the previous basho. 

Kotoshoho passes Oho, now having switched 4 basho in a row.

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I assume you're making the list with a simple query on sumodb. Would it be just as easy to make a "rikishi older than everyone above them on the banzuke" list? Of course, that list would change much less often.

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8 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

I assume you're making the list with a simple query on sumodb. Would it be just as easy to make a "rikishi older than everyone above them on the banzuke" list? Of course, that list would change much less often.

Yes, but I'm not sure why that would be interesting.  At least, it wouldn't to me.  This gets updated at the same time as the other "Prospects to keep an eye on", as my interest is in who is coming up the ranks fast for their age.  I'm not interested in finding out who is next to retire or whatever you think you'll get from what you suggested.

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2 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Yes, but I'm not sure why that would be interesting.  At least, it wouldn't to me.  This gets updated at the same time as the other "Prospects to keep an eye on", as my interest is in who is coming up the ranks fast for their age.  I'm not interested in finding out who is next to retire or whatever you think you'll get from what you suggested.

curious how you did this, as when I was messing around I couldn't really find how to sort by age/what you did.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Chartorenji said:

curious how you did this, as when I was messing around I couldn't really find how to sort by age/what you did.

On the banzuke page, you can have it display birth dates.  To make exporting easier, I also do one-column and simple style.  I copy the entire banzuke to Excel, extract the dates from the text the database gives as the date, then use a formula that checks that date against all the dates of those higher on the list and returns true when it finds someone who qualifies.  I then filter the list for just where that formula is true.  Once it's set up, I only need to copy in the list of rikishi each basho to update it.

Edited by Gurowake
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8 hours ago, Gurowake said:

Yes, but I'm not sure why that would be interesting.  At least, it wouldn't to me.  This gets updated at the same time as the other "Prospects to keep an eye on", as my interest is in who is coming up the ranks fast for their age.  I'm not interested in finding out who is next to retire or whatever you think you'll get from what you suggested.

It would interest me because it says "these are the rikishi still holding on to ranks despite their age". So it's really just about seeing whose performance is most impressive despite their age, same as your concept, except at the other end of the life-cycle of a rikishi. Sure, we're not going to see up-and-coming prospects, presumably we're going to see soon-to-fall mainstays. Personally I'd like to see that list once or twice a year, and now that you've shared your process I might just do that myself!

Thanks!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Yarimotsu said:

It would interest me because it says "these are the rikishi still holding on to ranks despite their age". So it's really just about seeing whose performance is most impressive despite their age, same as your concept, except at the other end of the life-cycle of a rikishi. Sure, we're not going to see up-and-coming prospects, presumably we're going to see soon-to-fall mainstays. Personally I'd like to see that list once or twice a year, and now that you've shared your process I might just do that myself!

Thanks!

O1e Shodai 05.11.1991

M2w Tamawashi 16.11.1984

J6w Shohozan 09.02.1984

Ms25e Aozora 26.08.1983

Sd23w Asatenmai 23.05.1981

Sd27w Dairaido 17.04.1980

Sd57w Shoketsu 05.09.1976

(I think I did this right!)

Edited by Yamanashi
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18 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

O1e Shodai 05.11.1991

I would not have guessed Shodai is older than Terunofuji, even if only by a couple of weeks!

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20 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

O1e Shodai 05.11.1991

M2w Tamawashi 16.11.1984

J6w Shohozan 09.02.1984

Ms25e Aozora 26.08.1983

Sd23w Asatenmai 23.05.1981

Sd27w Dairaido 17.04.1980

Sd57w Shoketsu 05.09.1976

(I think I did this right!)

Looks correct to me, although I would definitely include the yokozuna at the top. It's kind of amazing to look at someone like Terunofuji and think that Tamawashi is 7 years older and still hasn't missed a bout and looks in generally good form. Then to see how quickly the next lot drops off from Tamawashi and Shohozan in terms of rank, despite being just a few years older.

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13 minutes ago, Yarimotsu said:

Looks correct to me, although I would definitely include the yokozuna at the top. It's kind of amazing to look at someone like Terunofuji and think that Tamawashi is 7 years older and still hasn't missed a bout and looks in generally good form. Then to see how quickly the next lot drops off from Tamawashi and Shohozan in terms of rank, despite being just a few years older.

Sure, why not, although AKSHULLY who above him is he older than?

Oh, and thanks to @Gurowake for the algorithm.

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19 minutes ago, Reonito said:

I would not have guessed Shodai is older than Terunofuji, even if only by a couple of weeks!

He's not older than the hills, but he is older than the mountain.

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9 hours ago, Yarimotsu said:

Then to see how quickly the next lot drops off from Tamawashi and Shohozan in terms of rank, despite being just a few years older.

That can be a little misleading, and maybe speaks to @Gurowake's comment.  They have that rank difference now, but Shohozan entered Ozumo in 2006, two years after Tamawashi, and peaked at Komosubi in 2013 when Tamawashi was still fighting to stay out of Juryo.  When Tamawashi made Komosubi in 2015, Shohozan was in the middle of a huge pendulum swing between upper Maegashira and upper Juryo (and back again).  They shared the Komosubi rank in July 2018, before Tamawashi returned to Sekiwake and Shohozan began his long slide to upper-Juryo.  So, at any time they would have had many different rank relationships -- but it doesn't matter, because as long as guys like Aminishiki (HD 1997) were active, they wouldn't show up on the list at all.

One strange advantage to being on this list: over the long haul you'll get replaced by some up-and-coming youngster, but not so often by an up-and-coming oldster.

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Posted (edited)

I think the comment was rather about the difference from Shohozan to the next guys, who are deep in the unsalaried ranks. Not that that's really a surprise. Most old rikishi are ranked far below where they were during their prime, so somebody in upper makushita would - in most cases - be somebody that was a steady sekitori at his best. Those guys don't tend to stick around for that long when the salary goes, so below juryo you'll often find (former) makushita journeymen making up such a list.

Impressive though that Aozora is still hanging on so high. He's at 71 tournaments in makushita now; as far as I can tell that's fourth all-time for guys who turned pro after university, behind Tochinoyama (86), Yanagawa (77), and Kaonishiki (74).

Edited by Asashosakari
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11 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Sure, why not, although AKSHULLY who above him is he older than?

Oh, and thanks to @Gurowake for the algorithm.

No one is above Terunofuji on the banzuke, so he is older than each of them.  If there were a list of "Rikishi who are more <X> than anyone above them on the banzuke", then the top person on the banzuke would automatically be on the list, regardless of what <X> is.  People that don't study mathematics generally have a problem with this, but the logic has to work that way.

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Posted (edited)

Rikishi who are older than everyone below them on the banzuke:

Sd57w Shoketsu 05.09.1976

Jk6w Sawaisamu 07.02.1977

Jk14e Higohikari 27.01.1988

Jk14w Chiyotsurugi 18.06.2003

Edited by Sue

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5 hours ago, Gurowake said:

No one is above Terunofuji on the banzuke, so he is older than each of them.  If there were a list of "Rikishi who are more <X> than anyone above them on the banzuke", then the top person on the banzuke would automatically be on the list, regardless of what <X> is.  People that don't study mathematics generally have a problem with this, but the logic has to work that way.

Uh, "no one" is above him on the banzuke; therefore, he is older than "no one"; therefore ... B-)

Sorry, I only minored in Math.

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Posted (edited)

The "older than ... " list for 2022 may be a bit of an anomaly because of the many retirements of sekitori and low-rankers over the last two years.  I ran the same study for Haru 2020:

(Y1e Hakuho 11.03.1985)

M7w Tamawashi 16.11.1984

M8e Shohozan 09.02.1984

M13e Kotoshogiku 30.01.1984

Ms1e Sokokurai 09.01.1984

Ms2e Toyonoshima 29.06.1983

Ms31e Sagatsukasa 21.12.1981

Sd1e Asatenmai 23.05.1981

Sd33e Kaonishiki 14.09.1978

Sd38w Shoketsu 05.09.1976

Jd99w Hanakaze 28.05.1970

(Above Hanakaze on that banzuke is Jd99e Takemaru, born 31 years later in 2001)

Edited by Yamanashi
'cause Reonito actually reads my posts (unlike me).
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4 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

M7w Tamawashi 16.11.1884

He's even more impressive than I thought! (Laughing...)

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2 minutes ago, Reonito said:

He's even more impressive than I thought! (Laughing...)

Well, that would clear out anyone below him!

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On 13/03/2022 at 11:32, Reonito said:

A lot of promise for numbers 3-7.

You're not feeling it for Otsuji? The kid knows how to get a 4-3.

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2 minutes ago, Hoshotakamoto said:

You're not feeling it for Otsuji? The kid knows how to get a 4-3.

I definitely have an eye on him, but I feel like getting through upper makushita is the acid test.

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Posted (edited)

Natsu 2022:

Y1e Terunofuji 29.11.1991
O1e Mitakeumi 25.12.1992
O2w Takakeisho 05.08.1996
K1e Hoshoryu 22.05.1999
M9e Kotoshoho 26.08.1999
M14e Oho 14.02.2000
J5e Kitanowaka 12.11.2000
J12w Atamifuji 03.09.2002
Ms23e Otsuji 06.10.2003
Sd8w Daihisho 08.11.2003
Sd33e Miyata 04.02.2005
Sd60e Mogamizakura 03.07.2005
Jd8w Takashoki 09.12.2005
Jd60e Kyokutaiga 28.02.2006
Jk5w Oyamazakura 15.08.2006
Jk10e Takaarashi 28.12.2006

Changes:

2 new recruits appear at the bottom of the list.

Mizuno and Shunrai drop below Takashoki.  The first is a switch for 3 basho in a row.

Mogamizakura moves up past Nishida.

Miyata moves up past Hokutoiwa.

Then there's a bunch of no changes before Mitakeumi passes Takakeisho.

Note that Kotoshoho and Oho did NOT switch for the first time in 5 basho.

 

Edited by Gurowake
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Posted (edited)

Rikishi older than everyone above them on the banzuke, Natsu 2022:

Y1e Terunofuji 29.11.1991
O1w Shodai 05.11.1991
M1e Takayasu 28.02.1990
M3w Tamawashi 16.11.1984
J12e Shohozan 09.02.1984
Ms41w Aozora 26.08.1983
Sd12w Asatenmai 23.05.1981
Sd31e Gorikiyama 21.03.1979
Sd45w Yoshiazuma 26.05.1977
Sd77e Shoketsu 05.09.1976

Takayasu makes a jump to appear on this list, Gorikiyama surpasses Dairaido in the middle of Sandanme and Yoshiazuma surpasses Shoketsu, and excluding Asatenmai we see dropping ranks for our oldest rikishi.

I thought I'd better post it since I'd done the calculation - If I'm cluttering your thread tell me and I'll make a new one.

Edited by Yarimotsu
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Nagoya 2022:

Y1e Terunofuji 29.11.1991
O1e Takakeisho 05.08.1996
K1e Hoshoryu 22.05.1999
M11e Kotoshoho 26.08.1999
M15w Oho 14.02.2000
J6e Atamifuji 03.09.2002
Ms18e Otsuji 06.10.2003
Ms58e Daihisho 08.11.2003
Sd20e Setonoumi 11.06.2004
Sd25e Ieshima 26.01.2005
Sd46w Miyata 04.02.2005
Sd52e Shunrai 10.04.2005
Sd62e Takashoki 09.12.2005
Jd43e Tanji 05.06.2006
Jd84w Hayashiryu 04.07.2006
Jd85e Rinko 04.07.2006
Jk1e Oyamazakura 15.08.2006
Jk2e Takaarashi 28.12.2006

Changes:

Takakeisho passes Mitakeumi

Kitanowaka moves down past Atamifuji

Setonoumi and Ieshima pass Miyata

Shunrai and Takashoki pass Mogamizakura

Tanji passes Kyokutaiga

Hayashiryu and Rinko (twins ranked right next to each other) pass Oyamazakura

 

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