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Hakuho Applying for Japanese Citizenship

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21 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Kisenosato wasn’t. 

He owed a lot of working hours from the previous couple of years and needed to start paying them back.

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3 hours ago, Otokonoyama said:

It was my understanding that Chiyonofuji declined the offered ichidai toshiyori, and instead took over the Kokonoe kabu from his stablemaster.

Ah, another careless miss, which also changed the meaning

9 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The point is to get rid of the ichidai toshiyori system: 4 eligible in the past, 1 declined the honor (Chiyonofuji), 1 left early - Demon seems to think it's not popular within the NSK - and that they don't want to have that last bastion also taken by the foreigners

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My thoughts are sort of the opposite when it comes to ichi-dai toshiyori status.  I see that there will be an eventual need for more Oyakata, not less.  Especially as the sport moves further away from the public control to acting more like a private corporation.  The ichi-dai toshiyori could become a natural way to grow the number of kabu, since a dai-yokozuna who deserves the title comes around only once in a generation (or so). Doing so would permanently memorialize the yokozuna's accomplishments and contributions to the Kyokai and society in general.

At this time we would have only added a handful of new kabu through this system:

Taiho, Kitanoumi, Chiyonofuji, Takanohana, and eventually Hakuho. If we really wanted to go further back, I suppose we could consider Futabayama.

Justin

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EDITORIAL: Sumo should toss outdated, unfair nationality rule out of the dohyo

Quote

The Japan Sumo Association (JSA) reprimanded yokozuna Hakuho on April 24 for calling on fans to join in a traditional Japanese “sanbon-jime” hand-clapping ritual during a ringside interview after the Mongolian won the Spring Grand Sumo Tournament in March.

The operator and regulator of professional sumo wrestling criticized Hakuho’s action for “undermining the tradition and order of the way of sumo.”

There is, indeed, nothing laudable about the top-ranking sumo wrestler’s eccentric, norm-defying behavior. But there is another, more serious and important issue concerning the unconventional yokozuna that the association should grapple with.

It is the association’s anachronistic and unreasonable requirement that a retired wrestler have Japanese nationality to run a sumo stable, or "heya," as “oyakata,” or a stablemaster.

This unwritten rule has forced Hakuho to apply for Japanese nationality to pursue post-retirement career as oyakata, also known as “toshiyori.”

Hakuho’s achievements as a sumo wrestler are gigantic and glorious. Since coming to Japan from Mongolia to become a sumo wrestler at the age of 15, Hakuho has accumulated a record 42 trophies and retained the sport’s highest rank for more than 10 years.

He fully deserves to become a stablemaster as “ichidai toshiyori,” a special honor bestowed on yokozuna who have made remarkable achievements in sumo. He wanted to be accorded the honor without acquiring Japanese nationality.

Few would criticize him for harboring a desire to keep pursuing his passion for sumo after retirement while preserving his national identity.

But the association has shown no intention to rethink this rule, forcing Hakuho to make an agonizing choice...

Continued

 

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I believe this piece by Chris Gould fits nicely here:

 

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Nationalism is bs to begin with, but who are the people in the Kyokai that they think they are to decide if Hakuho gets to be a sumo coach. He must have like twice as many yusho as the whole Kyokai board combined. None of them have ever been Dai Yokozuna. And none of them are in the conversation for best ever.

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4 hours ago, WakaTakaFlame said:

He must have like twice as many yusho as the whole Kyokai board combined. None of them have ever been Dai Yokozuna. And none of them are in the conversation for best ever.

Which all has nothing to do with the work within the sumo association.

It's like in football (soccer) where you find a lot of very successful players, who became terrible head coaches. Being good in sports does not also mean being good at managing this sport.

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1 hour ago, Tsubame said:

Which all has nothing to do with the work within the sumo association.

It's like in football (soccer) where you find a lot of very successful players, who became terrible head coaches. Being good in sports does not also mean being good at managing this sport.

It does in sumo.   It's damn near a prerequisite to have been Yokozuna to become rijicho.  It is a prerequisite to become a coach to have a kabu, which requires substantial sekitori experience.  It's also a prerequisite to have a kabu to be a shimpan, or a bunch of other things.  

This system is unlikely to find the best coaches, managers, or ringside judges, but it's the system.  If you're not an excellent rikishi, you aren't even eligible for the other jobs.  

On the subject of Hakuho in particular, the success of Ishiura and Enho bodes well for his skill at scouting and/or coaching.

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10 hours ago, WakaTakaFlame said:

Nationalism is bs to begin with, but who are the people in the Kyokai that they think they are to decide if Hakuho gets to be a sumo coach.

BS or not, you are playing by the Kyokai's rules. It is their 'show'. You don't want to play by their rules (written or otherwise) then you won't be 'playing' at all.

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5 hours ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

It does in sumo.   It's damn near a prerequisite to have been Yokozuna to become rijicho.  It is a prerequisite to become a coach to have a kabu, which requires substantial sekitori experience.  It's also a prerequisite to have a kabu to be a shimpan, or a bunch of other things.  

This system is unlikely to find the best coaches, managers, or ringside judges, but it's the system.  If you're not an excellent rikishi, you aren't even eligible for the other jobs.  

On the subject of Hakuho in particular, the success of Ishiura and Enho bodes well for his skill at scouting and/or coaching

A bit of a nitpick, but a distinction should be made between oyakata and coach, as many heyas have coaches who don't have kabu or have any other intimate relation with the kyokai.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

A bit of a nitpick, but a distinction should be made between oyakata and coach, as many heyas have coaches who don't have kabu or have any other intimate relation with the kyokai.

I was thinking somethng similar. How many shisho are out there, who let other oyakata or outside coaches do the training, because they know it's better that way? 

Edited by Benihana

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Kishinoyama said:

BS or not, you are playing by the Kyokai's rules. It is their 'show'. You don't want to play by their rules (written or otherwise) then you won't be 'playing' at all.

You are right; even Takanohana could not bring reform.

Edited by orandashoho
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On 26/05/2019 at 16:52, Kishinoyama said:

BS or not, you are playing by the Kyokai's rules. It is their 'show'. You don't want to play by their rules (written or otherwise) then you won't be 'playing' at all.

Yeah, that's the problem.

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22 hours ago, WakaTakaFlame said:

Yeah, that's the problem.

It isn't.

"Let's change the sport because a competitor or because someone doesn't like sumo being sumo. " Better not.

 

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On 26/05/2019 at 06:04, WakaTakaFlame said:

Nationalism is bs to begin with, (...)

I'm sorry you feel that way.

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Moderator's request: Please refrain from discussing off-topics evoking strong opinions. This is not the place.

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On 05/06/2019 at 11:00, Genjurooo said:

It isn't.

"Let's change the sport because a competitor or because someone doesn't like sumo being sumo. " Better not.

 

The governing structures are not the sport. The kyokai is not sumo in the same way FIFA is not soccer or the IOC is not every olympic sport. Sumo is what happens on the Dohyo and in the beyas. Soccer is what happens on the field.

If being a Mongolian is good enough to be by far the best person to ever compete in this sport, it should be good enough to be an oyakata. And if there are structural issues preventing that, those structures should be changed.

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My House, My Rules!
They can do whatever they want. Unless there is a Bosman Law like it happen with Football, they can make their own rules and descriminations. Don't know much about Japan's legal system to know if a Bosman type ruling would be possible, but I would find it very difficult.

 

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1 hour ago, WakaTakaFlame said:

The governing structures are not the sport. The kyokai is not sumo in the same way FIFA is not soccer or the IOC is not every olympic sport. Sumo is what happens on the Dohyo and in the beyas. Soccer is what happens on the field.

If being a Mongolian is good enough to be by far the best person to ever compete in this sport, it should be good enough to be an oyakata. And if there are structural issues preventing that, those structures should be changed.

Yes let's be smartass to get around the argument. I think we've seen quite a few times here that you have your opinion and rather being ridiculing of everyone else's opinions, you should respect that the way things are with the Kyokai are not going to change anytime soon. Hakuho had his chance to see if things were going to change, and they did not play out the way they did. And now he has to adhere to the rules that Kyokai has set forth if he wishes to remain a member of the organization. I'm sure if you were running a business or an organization and someone who became very successful in your company suddenly demanded that you should change your product to something completely different without any concrete evidence that it would be something that sells, you would be all for completely changing the rules of the game correct? Or are there rules that you have to follow in your company, and without those rules you could be taken advantage of? Hakuho is in no position to demand anything and just because one identifies as something does not make them better than someone else. 

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@Moderators: I'm thinking there ought to be a 'Please don't feed the troll' emoticon, as it seems a name like WakaTakaFlame isn't clue enough for some. (Whistling...)

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2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

@Moderators: I'm thinking there ought to be a 'Please don't feed the troll' emoticon, as it seems a name like WakaTakaFlame isn't clue enough for some. (Whistling...)

There’s nothing wrong with a flame-based shikona. Abi has one (阿炎) as does Enho (炎鵬). :-)

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13 hours ago, WakaTakaFlame said:

If being a Mongolian is good enough to be by far the best person to ever compete in this sport, it should be good enough to be an oyakata.

The Kyokai is a business cooperative, not a hall of fame.

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Posted (edited)

The Japanese citizenship requirement is a relatively recent reform in the context of sumo history (1976) and so, for what it’s worth, I don’t think arguing against it is necessarily trolling. It’s just an opinion about something that once didn’t exist and could not exist again if the will is there. Sumo is a sport of tradition, but this actually isn’t much of one. 

Personally, I think it’s a policy I’d be unlikely to support were it being proposed for introduction in 2019, but nor do I have any particular problem with keeping it. It is what it is, and it’s not as if the Kyokai has an issue with foreigners per se, since they welcome foreign-born rikishi who have changed their nationality. Sumo doesn’t embrace diversity, but that doesn’t mean it’s not inclusive. On the contrary, the Japanese go to great lengths to integrate foreign rikishi into Japanese culture. 

Edited by Eikokurai

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On 19/04/2019 at 04:09, Otokonoyama said:

Spoiler alert. Mongolians have their own identity.

More on that group:

Meet The Hu, the Mongolian metal band set to conquer Europe

Combining traditional instruments and Mongolian throat singing with hard rock, The Hu have alighted on an unusual combination that makes them unique ambassadors for Mongolian culture

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/the-hu-mongolian-band-interview

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1 hour ago, Otokonoyama said:

More on that group:

Meet The Hu, the Mongolian metal band set to conquer Europe

Combining traditional instruments and Mongolian throat singing with hard rock, The Hu have alighted on an unusual combination that makes them unique ambassadors for Mongolian culture

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/the-hu-mongolian-band-interview

I wonder if they’ll face legal action from Pete Townshend and Roger Daltrey.

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