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Games Talk Haru 2019

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Both scores are confirmed!

130.68!!! Absolutely incredible, congrats to a record for the ages!!

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Posted (edited)

A yusho in Oracle, 2 jun yusho and 2 more top ten for 36.50 points. Along with KKs and top 1/3s everywhere except DST, TTT and Toto. Hard to complain about that.

 

Many Congrats to all, especially Haidouzo, on a great basho. (Bigfish...) (Singingdrunk...)

Thanks, as always, to everyone who runs the games. (Showingrespect...)(Iamnotworthy...)

Edited by Rocks
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BTW, I never really paid much attention to the rules in Fantasy, as I am awful in it. And this would have changed nothing this basho but I have to ask.

5 points for each Sansho and only 8 for the Yusho? Someone picking 2  Sansho right and getting the Yusho wrong pick up more points than the person guessing the Yusho winner?  This isn't a complaint and I don't expect anything to change but that's pretty weird to me right there. Especially given  the low scoring  in the game. 

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27 minutes ago, Rocks said:

BTW, I never really paid much attention to the rules in Fantasy, as I am awful in it. And this would have changed nothing this basho but I have to ask.

5 points for each Sansho and only 8 for the Yusho? Someone picking 2  Sansho right and getting the Yusho wrong pick up more points than the person guessing the Yusho winner?  This isn't a complaint and I don't expect anything to change but that's pretty weird to me right there. Especially given  the low scoring  in the game. 

Just a guess, but picking a yusho winner during the hakuho dominance era probably wasn't really an exciting component to a game.

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After playing Hoshitori Game for the 101st time, I think I have just completed the qualifications for promotion to Yokozuna! I am thrilled - that can be such a challenging game. Maybe I'll try my hand at a few more of the other pre-basho games in future. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:
9 hours ago, Rocks said:

BTW, I never really paid much attention to the rules in Fantasy, as I am awful in it. And this would have changed nothing this basho but I have to ask.

5 points for each Sansho and only 8 for the Yusho? Someone picking 2  Sansho right and getting the Yusho wrong pick up more points than the person guessing the Yusho winner?  This isn't a complaint and I don't expect anything to change but that's pretty weird to me right there. Especially given  the low scoring  in the game. 

Just a guess, but picking a yusho winner during the hakuho dominance era probably wasn't really an exciting component to a game.

Well, at Hakuho's best the choice in the first bracket was usually between Hakuho and the combined score of an ozeki and a maegashira... (The game predates Hakuho anyway.)

In any case, given that FS is a game with highly restricted choices (only 2-6 rikishi per bracket slot) and the vast majority of the time the yusho will be won by somebody in the top two sections, it's not like huge amounts of skill are involved with picking the yusho winner correctly. Sansho are a much more open field with a lot more candidates who might do well in a basho, so yeah, getting two sansho winners right strikes me as a bigger deal. I didn't make the rules, but 8 points feels like an appropriate reward for what's just a coinflip half the time (between [dominant yokozuna] and [somebody-other-than-dominant-yokozuna]), and a foregone conclusion the other half (when no sensible picks besides [dominant yokozuna] are available).

I have no idea what "low scoring" has to do with anything.

Edited by Asashosakari
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I have no idea what "low scoring" has to do with anything.

No idea? In a game where 5 points amount to 5% of the winning total? It's the equivalent of wiping out the difference in picking a 10-5 sekitori over a 5-10.  For EACH sansho. It's the equivalent of having the sansho be worth over 50 points a piece in Hoshitori. Picking Aoiyama over the second best in that category, Kotoshogiku, amounted to less than a 10%  difference in wins. Thanks to the sansho the player picking Aoiyama is getting a 40% better result for that pick. And all because they decided Aoiyama beating a rookie at rookie at M13 means more than Giku losing to a seasoned veteran at M11.

Supposedly a player is picking the sekitori he thinks will do best in any given category. Having done that they should get benefit for doing so right?. Someone picking Goeido should not have ended up 3 points behind someone picking Takakeisho  just because they gave a sansho to a sekiwake for the 244th time out of 420 basho in the last 70 years. Is there anyone here willing to argue that Takakeisho had a 25% better basho than Goeido did? Picking a sekiwake to win a sansho is about as much as coin flip as picking the yusho winner.  Especially when the Sekiwake is on a good streak.  If you are going to give out a 5% overall game benefit for a sansho then you have no business forcing players to pick between ozeki, who can't get sansho, and Sekiwake who can.  Any given category should have sekitori competing for the same prize. 

Picking sansho is not terribly skillful. It simply the natural result of picking the rikishi who will do well. Most of the time.  Half the time the Sekiwake doing well or Rookie getting 10 wins is going to win one. Often times both of those happen. It should not be worth 63% of what winning the Yusho is when winning the yusho happens once a basho and sansho average 2-3 times per basho.  And it should not be significant enough to wipe out making a poor pick completely. 

In my humble opinion, of course.

This doesn't even take into effect how this affects the banzuke, which I don't care a lot about,  but many do.

Edited by Rocks

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I have a problem with giving any points at all out for sansho in any game, since they aren't decided in the ring but by a group of mostly journalists, but I don't make the rules.  I did my share of whining about the rules when I first started playing, but no one cared.  It's not going to change just because you don't like it.

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25 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

I have a problem with giving any points at all out for sansho in any game, since they aren't decided in the ring but by a group of mostly journalists, but I don't make the rules.  I did my share of whining about the rules when I first started playing, but no one cared.  It's not going to change just because you don't like it.

I'd have to agree. Giving significance to who wins a sansho seems silly. It's barely better than giving out points for who gets voted "Spirited Rikishi". Allowing it to skew the results of a game to the significance it does in FS seems ludicrous. Imagine losing a Fantasy Football game because you didn't have enough players make the all pro team.

I don't expect anything to change. But I have wondered for a while now what was behind these cockamamie categories they use in FS with placing Sekiwake in with Ozeki etc. I just thought it was recognizing guys operating at a higher level than their rank reflects. I get it now. But it's always a bit shocking to discover these idiosyncrasies in this games. 

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I like the weird categories otherwise it would be too close to RotoSumo. Its nice to have some diversity in the games.

Hoshitori and Paper Oyakata are so similar it might be worth sending in an unpopular team into Paper Oyakata since its so easy to fly up and down the banzuke anyway - conservative play isn't really rewarded.

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Clearly, I need to read the rules of some of the games more closely...

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21 hours ago, Rocks said:

No idea? In a game where 5 points amount to 5% of the winning total? It's the equivalent of wiping out the difference in picking a 10-5 sekitori over a 5-10. (...)

Strange how you don't have a problem with awarding 8 points for the yusho though. Why is that not an issue when anyone who picks that rikishi already gets rewarded by receiving more win points for him than any player who picked an alternative rikishi?
 

21 hours ago, Rocks said:

Someone picking Goeido should not have ended up 3 points behind someone picking Takakeisho  just because they gave a sansho to a sekiwake for the 244th time out of 420 basho in the last 70 years. Is there anyone here willing to argue that Takakeisho had a 25% better basho than Goeido did? Picking a sekiwake to win a sansho is about as much as coin flip as picking the yusho winner.  Especially when the Sekiwake is on a good streak.  If you are going to give out a 5% overall game benefit for a sansho then you have no business forcing players to pick between ozeki, who can't get sansho, and Sekiwake who can. Any given category should have sekitori competing for the same prize. 

This says nothing more to me than "I don't want to think about the things the game rules want me to think about". The point distribution rules are known and freely available, and it's perfectly possible to incorporate Takakeisho's sansho eligibility into one's comparison of his likely points potential vis-a-vis Goeido's. If that's not something you're interested in doing, then FS is not for you.

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1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Strange how you don't have a problem with awarding 8 points for the yusho though. Why is that not an issue when anyone who picks that rikishi already gets rewarded by receiving more win points for him than any player who picked an alternative rikishi?
 

Actually, as a preference, I would not awards points for winning the yusho either. In picking a lineup for a game the total points those picks earn with their wins should be what determines a winner. But I can at least see it because if you have been ballsy enough to pick against Hakuho in good form in the last decade or so and got it right you should be rewarded for it. But I'd bump it down to 5 points or less. And winning the yusho is not something people get to vote for. 

 

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

This says nothing more to me than "I don't want to think about the things the game rules want me to think about". The point distribution rules are known and freely available, and it's perfectly possible to incorporate Takakeisho's sansho eligibility into one's comparison of his likely points potential vis-a-vis Goeido's. If that's not something you're interested in doing, then FS is not for you.

This says to me  "We like it like this because it's reduces the number of newbs  getting 'lucky' and beating us skillful players by picking the actual best line up. Yeah,  it makes doing the banzuke awful when they realize this and leave but we've got plenty of players."

BTW, where exactly do the rules explain that Yokozuna and Ozeki are not eligible for Sansho? Or that their frequency for being rewarded to  certain records attached to certain types of riksihi is well known?  Not asking for myself mind you, I know. Just asking for the people who just assume a Fantasy Sumo game works like other fantasy sports games and not basically have the winner determined by whether or not some press vote to say your choices are extra special. 

Don't worry FS, and it's Master points, are for me.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Rocks said:

 

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

This says nothing more to me than "I don't want to think about the things the game rules want me to think about". The point distribution rules are known and freely available, and it's perfectly possible to incorporate Takakeisho's sansho eligibility into one's comparison of his likely points potential vis-a-vis Goeido's. If that's not something you're interested in doing, then FS is not for you.

This says to me  "We like it like this because it's reduces the number of newbs  getting 'lucky' and beating us skillful players by picking the actual best line up. Yeah,  it makes doing the banzuke awful when they realize this and leave but we've got plenty of players."

BTW, where exactly do the rules explain that Yokozuna and Ozeki are not eligible for Sansho? Or that their frequency for being rewarded to  certain records attached to certain types of riksihi is well known?  Not asking for myself mind you, I know. Just asking for the people who just assume a Fantasy Sumo game works like other fantasy sports games and not basically have the winner determined by whether or not some press vote to say your choices are extra special. 

Don't worry FS, and it's Master points, are for me.

Is someone miffed at missing out on 0.17 Masters points for picking Takayasu instead of Takakeisho? ;-)

But seriously, your view of sumo games strikes me as a little odd. You seriously seem to think that the best sumo games are those where someone who is not even interested in the basic rules of the game must have exactly the same chance of winning a yusho than someone who reads the rules and puts a lot of effort into making picks. I do not share this view at all. Wouldn't it then make sense to completely forego any skill element, and have the yusho winner of a game determined by a lottery? Oh, wait, we already have ISP... ;-)

 

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Posted (edited)
On ‎24‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 23:59, Rocks said:

BTW, I never really paid much attention to the rules in Fantasy, as I am awful in it. And this would have changed nothing this basho but I have to ask.

5 points for each Sansho and only 8 for the Yusho? Someone picking 2  Sansho right and getting the Yusho wrong pick up more points than the person guessing the Yusho winner?  This isn't a complaint and I don't expect anything to change but that's pretty weird to me right there. Especially given  the low scoring  in the game. 

Well done for beating me in sumo game  Rocks and also the best quote of the basho.......

"Budge up Fujisan"

I wish I'd thought of that............

 

 

 

 

Edited by Fujisan
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52 minutes ago, Randomitsuki said:

Is someone miffed at missing out on 0.17 Masters points for picking Takayasu instead of Takakeisho? ;-)

Good one. But I'm really not. Considering I had Asanoyama and Yutakayama on my lineup I was stunned as was near the top for as long as I was. I just figured Yoshikaze and ichinojo were saving me. Yoshikaze wasn't a highly popular pick the way ichinojo was.  I expected to drop at the end as per usual. I had just never bothered to wonder why I dropped so much at the end as I often didn't pick the yusho winner.

1 hour ago, Randomitsuki said:

But seriously, your view of sumo games strikes me as a little odd. You seriously seem to think that the best sumo games are those where someone who is not even interested in the basic rules of the game must have exactly the same chance of winning a yusho than someone who reads the rules and puts a lot of effort into making picks. I do not share this view at all. Wouldn't it then make sense to completely forego any skill element, and have the yusho winner of a game determined by a lottery? Oh, wait, we already have ISP... ;-)

What is odd about that? I don't know about best games but if someone had picked Hakuho, Takakeisho, Endo, Ichinojo, Aoiyama, Shohozan, Yoshikaze,  Tomokaze and Chiyoshoma and had done so at random they shouldn't have the same chance at winning? To someone unfamiliar with how Sansho are awarded and their regular nature those rules are useless. Worse than useless as they give the false impression sansho are open to all rikishi and are therefore not something to especially pay attention to.  Then having done so they purposefully pit a rikishi that can win one as a choice against others who can't. Giving those in the "know" another opportunity at 5 extra points counting on your run of the mill player just picking who they think will win the most in that category.  That isn't skill or effort. Skill and effort can't be conferred by telling somebody. Making the game winnable to someone just starting a game doesn't make it a lottery. I'm just saying people picking what rikishi will score best in a category should have the same chance as anyone else. People picking, God forbid, their favorites should have the same chance.  If a Goeido fan had picked him along with the same picks as Choshu-yuki they would have lost. Despite him actually winning more matches than anyone in his category. That shouldn't happen and I would think that sort of thing has something to do with the churn in that game. I know if I was a casual Sumo fan and had Googled  fantasy and sumo, finding that game as it's first (which explains a lot of it's popularity BTW, think about putting the words  fantasy sport in your meta tags gamer runners), playing, doing well then dropping to the bottom for no obviously discernible reason I would not be back next basho.

Maybe I'd join a league like this one:

https://www.fantasysumo.us/read-me.html

The next one listed which awards 5 points for a sansho to 10 for the Yusho and nearly as much for a kinboshi as a sansho.  The points for the sansho are still too high IHO but at least they don't have as large as impact as they do in FS. They don't force you to pick between a Sekiwake and a Ozeki for your lineup either. But I guess @Asashosakari would consider them playing there instead of FS a feature. 

 

Listen Rando, I'm all for skill and effort winning out. I'm for strategies. I was seriously worried this basho in SG.  I knew I had not been scoring well enough in past basho despite my record. When I started 2-4 I seriously thought maybe I had no skill. I just got lucky picking up easy wins because I figured out how to beat all the drones in lower Makushita.  Yes, checking the past picks of the drones required a bit of effort but I'd hardly call that a skill.  Thankfully I upped my game and turned it around. Who knows? It was a high scoring basho and I still got lucky. But I'm  proud of hitting 110 points. 

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2 hours ago, Fujisan said:

Well done for beating me in sumo game  Rocks and also the best quote of the basho.......

"Budge Fujisan"

I wish I'd thought of that............

 

 

 

 

GG, and I got lucky. If Kotoshogiku had won I wouldn't. I expected him to. I googled a British phrase to say to you and settled on that as you are right in front of me on the banzuke.  I'm sure we'll be at it again next basho. Good luck. It's tough moving up the banzuke. I faced 2 people who have been at SG for 15 years now. I can't even imagine that. I hope these games keep my interest for that long. 

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Posted (edited)

Rocks,

what I find odd about your rules posts is that you so frequently frame them in a way that makes experienced players (those who tend to dominate the games) look bad. In Oracle, the experienced players are bad because they work with expected wins rather than making gambles; and in FS the experienced players are bad because they do such unfair things like studying the rules of the game. Now, in order to make your case you come up with scenarios that look extremely unplausible to me: the player who does not know what a sansho is, plays FS nonetheless, ardently checks the standings each day, is extremely happy to be near the top until Day 14, then gets kicked down the standings due to the unfair rules, and leaves the game, forever embittered. This is a moving story, to be sure, but you seem to happily ignore a scenario that is much much more likely:

The much much more likely scenario is that an experienced player will have picked the rikishi with most wins in each category, but then will get shafted on senshuraku by missing out on the sansho, and being overtaken by a less experienced player. Would you call that unfair as well? If yes, why did you conjure the much more unlikely scenario?

In fact, there is some evidence that the current rules for FS are leveling the playing field much more than just going by raw wins, as we used to have a Superbanzuke game (GISP) which exactly fulfilled your criteria - nine categories, and only the wins counted. This game, more than most others, was dominated by the top players.

 

Edited by Randomitsuki
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Posted (edited)

@Rocks

If you don't like the idea of getting points in a game for Yusho winner and Sansho winners then you should absolutely try "Yoso". This nice game invented by game master Nekonishiki exists now for more than 15 years and no one ever complained about the fact that there are even direct questions regarding Yusho winner (5 points), Jun-Yusho winner/s (3 points) and Sansho winners (3 points each). Before making your pre-basho picks you really have to think about who has the best chances for grabbing a Sansho. I can only highly recommend to try this game as it might help you for other games like Fantasy or Hoshitori also... Perhaps then you get used to it.

Ganzohnesushi

Edited by Ganzohnesushi

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On 27/03/2019 at 04:25, Randomitsuki said:

Rocks,

what I find odd about your rules posts is that you so frequently frame them in a way that makes experienced players (those who tend to dominate the games) look bad. In Oracle, the experienced players are bad because they work with expected wins rather than making gambles; and in FS the experienced players are bad because they do such unfair things like studying the rules of the game. Now, in order to make your case you come up with scenarios that look extremely unplausible to me: the player who does not know what a sansho is, plays FS nonetheless, ardently checks the standings each day, is extremely happy to be near the top until Day 14, then gets kicked down the standings due to the unfair rules, and leaves the game, forever embittered. This is a moving story, to be sure, but you seem to happily ignore a scenario that is much much more likely:

The much much more likely scenario is that an experienced player will have picked the rikishi with most wins in each category, but then will get shafted on senshuraku by missing out on the sansho, and being overtaken by a less experienced player. Would you call that unfair as well? If yes, why did you conjure the much more unlikely scenario?

In fact, there is some evidence that the current rules for FS are leveling the playing field much more than just going by raw wins, as we used to have a Superbanzuke game (GISP) which exactly fulfilled your criteria - nine categories, and only the wins counted. This game, more than most others, was dominated by the top players.

 

First, sorry I took so long to respond but I got busy with life and work etc. Really busy.

I am really not trying to make any players look bad. Just the opposite really. My intention isn't even to make the games look bad. Just to point out flaws and oddities, in my opinion. And it's just that, my opinion. I say it over and over but I do mean it. I'm not saying these things because I expect them to change and it does not bother me if they don't. With one exception regarding FS which i will get to.  

Yes, I did poke fun at players for playing conservatively in Oracle, especially Panda, but I blame the players actions entirely on the scoring in the game. Not the players themselves.  I play exactly the same as they do. But that type of play does not reflect a real effort to predict each player's score for the basho as the description of the game suggests. It reflects an attempt to get the highest score and win the yusho. I thought it was so great to see Panda go for 5's with Kansei and Mitkeumi last basho. One paid off, the other didn't. But it certainly could have and at worse it was a wash. He should not take that as a dumb thing to try or what did him in. 

The same is true for Fantasy. I do not blame experienced players for taking advantage of something in the scoring which can give them an edge. I will be doing the same next basho. But I do take issue with how said advantage is, or rather isn't, being presented. The advantage in Oracle is not pointed out either, but at the same time it is discernible from looking at the scoring in the game and the rules without any other knowledge. The same is not true for FS. The rules explain what a sansho is and how it can help you by giving you an extra 5 points. It does not tell you some rikishi can get one and others can't. It then goes on to have a choice being made between those who can and can't. Worse it then goes on to suggest that because random choosing can be competitive that knowledge of things like who receives a sansho aren't really that important. In reality a little knowledge could actually hurt you. Someone with a casual knowledge of sumo might know an Ozeki is ranked higher and pick the Ozeki over the Sekiwake he is pitted against expecting him to score higher. Said person could easily think a sansho is available to all and the rules do nothing to dissuade him from that. Someone with no knowledge and picking at random still has a shot at those extra 5 points. This is the one thing I would hope does get changed and that FS Rules reflect the complete sansho rules, especially if it's going to keep putting those who can get one in the same category as those that can't for picks.

I do not actually think anything nefarious was meant by this. I think this is, like in other games, a quirk that has popped up over time. A side effect of past efforts to actually improve the game. But that is entirely based on my knowledge of the people who made and administer these games. The type of stand up guys they are and the dedication they have to playing and administering these games through my extensive interaction with them on this board and in the games themselves. Without such knowledge. it would be easy to see FS, with the way it scores and the way the rules are presented. as  the sumo game equivalent of 3 card monte.  Yes,  even in 3 card monte the player will sometimes ignore the obvious tells and the efforts of the dealer to get him to pick the wrong card and will pick the right card at random. But purposefully or not, a false choice is being offered. Saying  it's easy to teach yourself not to get suckered doesn't really make 3 card monte a fair game.

As far as plausibility of the scenarios I would say given the large number of casual players in FS that someone leaving the game never to return again after realizing  how the scoring in the game  works is more  likely than an experienced player getting beat out on a sansho pick.  Especially given my main point is that it is far more likely an experienced player, being thoroughly familiar with who is eligible to win a sansho and the likely scenarios that will happen in, to make that key pick of a non ozeki pitted against an ozeki than someone with a causal to no knowledge would. An experienced player isn't picking who will win more in that situation, he is picking who will get the most points in that category. It's the casual player who is more likely to just pick who will win more matches. If an experienced player is getting beat out for a sansho pick it is much more likely that is occurring in a category where all can win the sansho.  Say someone picking an injured Kotoyuki  over a healthy Ikioi and having that pay off. 

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On 27/03/2019 at 05:07, Ganzohnesushi said:

you should absolutely try "Yoso".

I've keep looking at it. But as is very obvious I need to get a better knowledge AND pay more attention in the games with master's points. This is one of the reasons I am still not playing Norizo Cup.  I just don't  understand or get everything yet. Other's I have only started playing the last couple basho. When I am more comfortable with making my picks in those games I will definitely move on to play Yoso. Other games which I play now which aren't on the Super Banzuke are mostly because they are really easy to play.

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2 hours ago, Rocks said:

I've keep looking at it. But as is very obvious I need to get a better knowledge AND pay more attention in the games with master's points. This is one of the reasons I am still not playing Norizo Cup.  I just don't  understand or get everything yet. Other's I have only started playing the last couple basho. When I am more comfortable with making my picks in those games I will definitely move on to play Yoso. Other games which I play now which aren't on the Super Banzuke are mostly because they are really easy to play.

Strategies for the oddball Norizo Cup questions that will save you thought and not cost you many points in the long run:

Yusho: None of the above

Realize or not: Always Yes

Vs: Always Lower rank if they will get more than one chance.

Special Question: random.org

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