Sign in to follow this  
Kintamayama

YDC convenes-Hatsu 2019

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Yes, we (ex)Talkies are over the top to varying degree, nevertheless everyone with two healthy eyes should have been able to see that Kisenosato had bouts handed to him left and right. Hence, his Ozeki promotion and "Yokozuna-like" figures. The injury just made it impossible to keep up the act, unless everyone would have gone the Baruto-Chyotaikai-Force-way.

Flame me, I don't care.

Yes, the conspiracy to keep Kisenosato in the joi for 5 years without gifting him enough matches to be promoted to Ozeki, to have to promote him with only 32/3 because they couldn't gift him enough wins to easily exceed the general guidelines, and then to gift him enough wins over the next 5 years to make him look like a Yokozuna in strength but somehow couldn't engineer him actually winning a tournament.  Sure.

Edited by Gurowake
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 4
  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Yes, the conspiracy to keep Kisenosato in the joi for 5 years without gifting him enough matches to be promoted to Ozeki, to have to promote him with only 32/3 because they couldn't gift him enough wins to easily exceed the general guidelines, and then to gift him enough wins over the next 5 years to make him look like a Yokozuna in strength but somehow couldn't engineer him actually winning a tournament.  Sure.

They were too busy engineering Kakuryu's rise to Yokozuna so there could be a charismatic, talkative foil to Hakuho to get the details of The Kisenosato Plan straight.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Some were saying the YDC actually caused Kisenosato to retire by issuing that "encouragement" before the basho, thereby pressuring an injured Kisenosato to enter the basho, ultimately causing the end result of intai. "There are people who say that but it isn't so. Basically, all that happened was  his own decision, and that's good," said Kitamura ex-chairman.

As I once said, no one would want to take the responsibility of retiring a Japan-born yokozuna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I felt for years that Kise was not going to be ready for yokozuna. His constant choking in the closing stretch of each basho and letting the yusho slip away constantly was one thing that was convincing me that he was not going to be the one. Yet all the fans were pushing for him to make it, and we would hear about those behind the scenes in the NSK who wanted it too. But the other thing I was afraid would happen did in fact come true. That somehow he would get injured and wouldn't be able to manage at the top. 

But we do have to give credit to Kise where credit is due. He won more yusho as Futahaguro and Wakanohana III did at the top rank. He is only one of a few who can say that they won their yokozuna debut basho. I do hope that he will be able to raise up some aspiring wrestlers to get to the level that it took him so long to achieve. And in the end he gave it everything he had, that for the most part is something that everybody can agree with.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Yes, we (ex)Talkies are over the top to varying degree, nevertheless everyone with two healthy eyes should have been able to see that Kisenosato had bouts handed to him left and right. Hence, his Ozeki promotion and "Yokozuna-like" figures. The injury just made it impossible to keep up the act, unless everyone would have gone the Baruto-Chyotaikai-Force-way.

Flame me, I don't care.

An excellent demonstration of why and how Sumotalk and all its associated acts descended into self-parody years ago. (Arguably ever since the site's golden boy Asashoryu was shown the door by the Kyokai, which opened the floodgates.)

Edited by Asashosakari
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Yes, we (ex)Talkies are over the top to varying degree, nevertheless everyone with two healthy eyes should have been able to see that Kisenosato had bouts handed to him left and right. Hence, his Ozeki promotion and "Yokozuna-like" figures. The injury just made it impossible to keep up the act, unless everyone would have gone the Baruto-Chyotaikai-Force-way.

Flame me, I don't care.

For ordinary viewers and sumo fans like me, I cannot identify a mukyrioku bout, with a few exceptions. Mike of ST claimed many honbasho bouts were mukyrioku or gifts or yaocho, should be over exaggeration. Now I believe, at least in prebasho keiko, even those before YDC, many of those keiko bouts were deliberately mukyrioku. Otherwise it's very difficult to explain why they performed so differently in honbasho. However, it's understandable and shouldn't be blamed for rikishi to be mukyrioku in keiko bouts. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Dapeng said:

mukyrioku mukyrioku. mukyrioku

At least you're consistent.  Here's a hint: "ky" is not a valid string of characters for a Japanese romanization.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Christ, I was just joking with my "yaocho even in keiko" post. The last thing I was expecting was a serious debate on the subject. 

Gurowake covered the Kisenosato leg of the debate excellently at the top of this page. 

6 hours ago, Dapeng said:

For ordinary viewers and sumo fans like me, I cannot identify a mukyrioku bout, with a few exceptions. 

How can you identify a *mukiryoku* bout anyway? As opposed to an undisclosed injury or six, or the guy getting dazed from the tachiai, or, god forbid, a rikishi having a really poor bout one time? 

And if there still is a yaocho circuit, do you really think that they would risk blowing their cover on a Mitakeumi keiko session whose followers are probably this forum, Mitakeumi's mum and seven beat writers for newspapers' sports sections? And not, say, a 3-6 J14 on day 10 of a honbasho, whose projected quality of life for the following two months really depends on a low-interest bout? 

And, for heaven's sake, we're talking about practice, to quote Allen Iverson. Maybe Takakeishou wanted to practice his yotsu against the single greatest yotsu man of the last 50 years (probably) because it's PRACTICE and he wanted to PRACTISE one very significant sumo discipline, which he happens to be uncomfortable engaging in, with the best possible partner. 

This isn't a personal attack against Dapeng or YBF or anyone. I just think that some of you are blowing some things way out of proportion. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

At least you're consistent.  Here's a hint: "ky" is not a valid string of characters for a Japanese romanization.

Kyoto and Tokyo beg to differ.

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

Kyoto and Tokyo beg to differ.

I'm sorry, I just came back to correct this because I realized the same thing.  I meant "kyr".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

I'm sorry, I just came back to correct this because I realized the same thing.  I meant "kyr".

I knew what you meant. It has to be with a vowel : kya, kyo, kyu. I was just ribbing you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I knew what you meant. It has to be with a vowel : kya, kyo, kyu. I was just ribbing you.

I know, but I realized that I made that mistake while doing something unrelated and hoped to correct it before anyone noticed.  But alas.

Edited by Gurowake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

I know, but I realized that I made that mistake while doing something unrelated and hoped to correct it before anyone noticed.  But alas.

I do that too. I’m so grateful the forum finally realized I’m not just a visiting member (or whatever I was called) as the edit function has spared me many embarrassments. I get rikishi names, tournament records and all sorts of things wrong all the time and rush to fix them before anyone calls me out on it. (Sigh...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Atenzan said:

And, for heaven's sake, we're talking about practice, to quote Allen Iverson

"We're sitting here, and I'm supposed to be the heya-gashira, and we're in here talking about keiko.  I mean, listen, we're talkin' about keiko.  Not a basho!  Not a basho!  Not a basho that I go out and die for and enter every bout like it's my last, not the basho, we're talking about ... keiko, man!"

  • Like 1
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Atenzan said:

How can you identify a *mukiryoku* bout anyway?

I can't, as I said. But I remember the kyokai reprimanded Baruto for mukyrioku against an ozeki who otherwise would be demoted. 

Mukyrioku in keiko is not an issue to me (maybe an issue to his master), but IS an issue in honbasho. The problem is, it's difficult to identify. I brought out the "mukyrioku" to discuss because some members in YDC suspected Hakuho being mukyrioku. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Atenzan said:

This isn't a personal attack against Dapeng or YBF or anyone. I just think that some of you are blowing some things way out of proportion. 

It seems you (and others) mistakenly thought that I replied to the notion of yaocho in keiko, when in fact I was addressing your SumoTalk line.

I really couldn't care less who is performing how in keiko. I stick to my view, though, that all of Kotoshogiku, Goeido and especially Kisenosato "were made" or at least heavily helped along. Why did it take so long regardless? I don't know, but note the timing regarding the various rijicho (Musashigawa leaves: suddenly lots of Japanese Ozeki; Hanaregoma out: Japzeki stagnate, Kitanoumi out: JapYushos, Kise promotion). Why did Kakuryu also make it? I don't know, but I expect the system of giving, taking, denying and granting to be a complex one. I am not Mike, who at times reads yaocho out of the way the yobidashi are singing, but I have watched a couple of bouts and I notice, say, "improbable inconsistencies".

Then again, maybe everything is always legit, like the hardcores here fundamentally insist on. Maybe Chyotaikai could levitate people, and Mitakeumi could push Hakuho with one functioning knee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And let me add, that, unlike Mike, I don't have an inherent urge to promote my views. What gets me is when people start talking about how awesome this or that rikishi is, when they are clearly not, or how epic this or that bout was, when it was obviously thrown. Really, that is what gets me.

I should stick to Moti's advice. He once told me that he used to be a hardcore purist who uncompromisingly rejected the notion of any kind of deals in sumo. But then he switched to a higher state, where he didn't care so much anymore what people like me say. And that's cool.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, yorikiried by fate said:

and Mitakeumi could push Hakuho with one functioning knee.

Since Hakuho himself was injured and surprised...yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 29/01/2019 at 19:47, Kintamayama said:

The famed Mr. Takasu of the Takasu clinic

:-O

Surprised to see you of all people give that guy's views further airing.

You know what he is (in)famous for right?

He is a noted Holocaust denier / admirer of Nazism.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

:-O

Surprised to see you of all people give that guy's views further airing.

You know what he is (in)famous for right?

He is a noted Holocaust denier / admirer of Nazism.

That's why I asked who he was. Never heard of him. I saw him being mentioned here, I had no idea. Now, for something weird. Really weird. He studied at Showa University. Showa in Hebrew means.. Holocaust.

Edited by Kintamayama
  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, John Gunning said:

:-O

Surprised to see you of all people give that guy's views further airing.

You know what he is (in)famous for right?

He is a noted Holocaust denier / admirer of Nazism.

One of the downsides of being a fan of Japan’s national sport ... sharing an interest with some of Japan’s less savoury nationalist tossers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Benihana said:

Since Hakuho himself was injured and surprised...yes.

I was about to say, chances aren't that slim considering Hakuho maybe had half a leg left at this point. I think the discussion itself is interesting, but while I won't deny the fix might be in at times Sumo is a sport were a little lapse of concentration, a hidden injury, a wrong or wrongly timed decision can make a world's difference.

Some people are quick to make conspiracies out of one or a combination of the above. 

Also, Holocaust denial is despicable. One of the rare points where I have no tolerance for other "opinions". 

Edited by Thorbjarn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, where does free speech end? Christopher Hitchens submitted that people with the most disgusting or outrageous opinions should be listened to with particular care, as it might be valuable to understand as to why they would reach such states of delusion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, yorikiried by fate said:

Well, where does free speech end? Christopher Hitchens submitted that people with the most disgusting or outrageous opinions should be listened to with particular care, as it might be valuable to understand as to why they would reach such states of delusion.

I’m all for free speech, but let’s be clear, it’s no more possible to have an “opinion” on whether the Holocaust happened than it is whether the Atlantic slave trade or the Napoleonic Wars happened. It’s an event of history. Now, one can have an opinion on the Holocaust itself (though anything other than “it was a heinous crime” and your opinion isn’t worth listening to) and one can debate the how, why, who, where and when of it, but not the what. Anyone who denies that it ever occurred is free to think that, but they’re not entitled to a platform and let’s not elevate that thought to the status of an opinion. 

Edited by Eikokurai
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that I can follow you. There are people who deny that (roughly; I won't research now) the century between 800 and 900 ever happened and try to base it on carbon dating methods and shit. Sure, it's mental, but in what sense should total denial of established common knowledge not be an opinion? Which word works for you? Proposition?

Edited by yorikiried by fate

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this