Asojima

Hatsu Basho 2019 Discussion [SPOILERS]

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16 minutes ago, Atenzan said:

Jokes aside, it will be interesting to see what the bigwigs say about a Tamawashi ozeki run. He's got 9 and 13 with a yusho from the jo'i over his last two, same as Takakeishou had before Hatsu. If they say he's good for a promotion with 11 in March, what can we assume about the ozeki promotion standards? 

Select as applicable:

-Atenzan must be proven right as close to right on time as possible 

-You have to have at least the last two of your three basho at sekiwake

-Newbloods are subject to higher standards, lest they do a Dejima/Miyabiyama

-33 is only good if the Y/O are genki

-The Kyokai are horribly bigoted against short people (in which case I should warn them not to listen to me anymore cause I'm shorter than Enhou) 

-Oshi-zumo is subject to higher scrutiny than yotsu-zumo, seeing as the vast majority of successful Y/O are belt guys

It seems that way but for me, this is a harsh condition. Sekiwake is the uppermost rank achievable by kachikoshi alone and thus where banzuke congestion is most likely to occur. A Komusubi with a kachikoshi can’t get to Sekiwake if both Sekiwake above them are winning, but not winning enough to make Ozeki. Takakeisho was incredibly unlucky that his 9-6 in September didn’t take him up a rank because Ichinojo scraped an 8-7 on the final day and Mitakeumi blew his Ozeki run. Holding that against him seems unfair. He was a Sekiwake in all but name.

Komusubi and Sekiwake are virtually the same (they even get paid the same) so ‘two in junior sanyaku’ should be the criteria, not specifically two at Sekiwake.

Now if I could just get the kyokai’s attention ... 

Edited by Eikokurai

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3 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

It seems that way but for me, this is a harsh condition. Sekiwake is the uppermost rank achievable by kachikoshi alone and thus where banzuke congestion is most likely to occur. A Komusubi with a kachikoshi can’t get to Sekiwake if both Sekiwake above them are winning, but not winning enough to make Ozeki. Takakeisho was incredibly unlucky that his 9-6 in September didn’t take him up a rank because Ichinojo scraped an 8-7 on the final day. Holding that against him seems unfair. He was a Sekiwake in all but name.

Komusubi and Sekiwake are virtually the same (they even get paid the same) so ‘two in junior sanyaku’ should be the criteria, not specifically two at Sekiwake.

Now if I could just get the kyokai’s attention ... 

They don't care. They want him to really prove it.

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It's been a long time since I've been here. I've been enjoying sumo as usual though! Next basho I'll be back from the start because I do kind of miss the discussion.

Some images from TV:

Watching over the special prizes

The Emperor's Cup close-up

The big moment (1)

The big moment (2)

 

Edited by dada78641
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Since the 50's, 5 rikishi have gone K-S-O in 3 basho: Wakahaguro, Tochihikari, Kaiketsu, Kirishima, Kaio.  Their records are ... ah, hell, look it up!

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13 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Since the 50's, 5 rikishi have gone K-S-O in 3 basho: Wakahaguro, Tochihikari, Kaiketsu, Kirishima, Kaio.  Their records are ... ah, hell, look it up!

Kaio at least had been in and out of junior sanyaku for years before his successful Ozeki run. He’d had about 20 tournaments at Sekiwake, including a continuous spell of 13 tournaments, which is as long as Takakeisho has been in Makuuchi at all ranks. What counts against Takakeisho is he’s too green. The NSK presumably wants to see him hold his own in junior sanyaku for a while.

Edited by Eikokurai
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Happy Mitakeumi was able to compete well after his return and was awarded a sansho (1st time ever someone has received one after having withdrawn due to injury), but I really hope he hasn't wrecked his chances for the next basho!

Edited by Fukurou

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Tochinoshin will finally get a "promotion" to the east side of the banzuke now that Kisenosato has retired!

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I would also like to add my two cents here on Takakeisho's ozeki run. As much as I love the guy, I agree with the decision not to promote him. As I mentioned yesterday in my post, he has not performed that well against higher ranked opponents. If we just look at his record against Mitakeumi, Goeido, and Takayasu in the last 3 bashos, he has only won one in nine bouts! I think he needs another basho to give the decision-makers more confidence that he is ozeki material and that he is competitive, or least has the potential to be competitive, against rikishi across the rankings. 

And of course congrats to Tamawashi. His streak of not missing a bout in his career continues to astound me, given the frequency of injuries in the sport. What's his secret?

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1 minute ago, wys said:

And of course congrats to Tamawashi. His streak of not missing a bout in his career continues to astound me, given the frequency of injuries in the sport. What's his secret?

Hakuho et al have always taken it easy on him in their bouts. They all agreed that “Since we’re winning all the yusho, you can have the prize for attendance.”  

#themongolianconspiracy

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1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

You know you’ve been immersed in sumo and Japanese words too long when you read that as ‘ba-kay’. I was confused for a second, like this was some Japanese thing I didn’t know about.

After watching  untold hours and hours of the Japaneese broadcast...other then the sumo terms and "Hia" ...I understand absolutely none of it...don't even know what "ne" means.... :-( 

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10 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Tochinoshin will finally get a "promotion" to the east side of the banzuke now that Kisenosato has retired!

Not bad for a guy who didn’t win a bout. Meanwhile Takakeisho goes 11-4 and will be demoted to the west.

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6 hours ago, Rainoyama said:

That's tough on Takakeisho, and he'll be Sekiwake west next basho probably since Tamawashi got the Yusho...

No, Takakeisho should stay East Sekiwake.

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1 minute ago, Bumpkin said:

No, Takakeisho should stay East Sekiwake.

What are you talking about? That’s gonna be Tamawashi.

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1 minute ago, Philioyamfugi said:

After watching  untold hours and hours of the Japaneese broadcast...other then the sumo terms and "Hia" ...I understand absolutely none of it...don't even know what "ne" means.... :-( 

Don’t worry. I only speak sumo as well. It’s kind of embarrassing when you’re in Japan and you can’t remember how to count but you can tell someone Kisenosato won a championship playoff with an armlock throw.

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5 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

No, Takakeisho should stay East Sekiwake.

On the one hand we have Haru 2017: Se Tamawashi 8-7 vs Sw Takayasu 12-3. No exchange.
On the other hand we have Nagoya 2018: Se Ichinojo 8-7 vs Sw Mitakeumi 13-2 Y. Exchange.

Since the yusho is involved, despite the smaller 2-win difference, I would say thay will exchange their banzuke positions

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Did anyone notice who the two sendo (gyoji leading the East and West processions) were in today's - day 15 - Makuuchi dohyoiri.  I tried MISLET, but the video has been deleted.  Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

 

Edited by Amamaniac

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17 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:
15 minutes ago, ALAKTORN said:

What are you talking about? That’s gonna be Tamawashi.

No, Takakeisho should stay East Sekiwake.

Not necessarily. I reference Goeido / Tochiozan in Natsu 2014.

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29 minutes ago, wys said:

I would also like to add my two cents here on Takakeisho's ozeki run. As much as I love the guy, I agree with the decision not to promote him. As I mentioned yesterday in my post, he has not performed that well against higher ranked opponents. If we just look at his record against Mitakeumi, Goeido, and Takayasu in the last 3 bashos, he has only won one in nine bouts! I think he needs another basho to give the decision-makers more confidence that he is ozeki material and that he is competitive, or least has the potential to be competitive, against rikishi across the rankings. 

And of course congrats to Tamawashi. His streak of not missing a bout in his career continues to astound me, given the frequency of injuries in the sport. What's his secret?

He has also won 3 / 6 against Yokozunae though and dominated Tamawashi (Sekiwake like Mitakeumi) and Tochinoshin (who is also an Ozeki) during those tournaments. Therefore I think the argument can be made both ways.

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2 hours ago, Andreas21 said:

The closest peer is obviously Terunofujis promotion, and the numbers are pretty much the same: 33 wins, a Yushu and a Jun-Yusho in Sanyaku, first basho no double digit from Meagashira.

There's one big difference, though: Terunofuji got his yusho in the third basho when the pressure was on.

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1 hour ago, wys said:

I would also like to add my two cents here on Takakeisho's ozeki run. As much as I love the guy, I agree with the decision not to promote him. As I mentioned yesterday in my post, he has not performed that well against higher ranked opponents. If we just look at his record against Mitakeumi, Goeido, and Takayasu in the last 3 bashos, he has only won one in nine bouts! I think he needs another basho to give the decision-makers more confidence that he is ozeki material and that he is competitive, or least has the potential to be competitive, against rikishi across the rankings. 

Agreed.

In my modest opinion, is not a matter of numbers, but a matter of "how". 

If he does a little final step, he will be in for sure very soon. 

Btw, I liked a lot Yago this time… :-)

Edited by Fede
typing error
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48 minutes ago, Thorbjarn said:

He has also won 3 / 6 against Yokozunae though and dominated Tamawashi (Sekiwake like Mitakeumi) and Tochinoshin (who is also an Ozeki) during those tournaments. Therefore I think the argument can be made both ways.

Hmm, I understand your points but it's hard to see how they outweigh the arguments on the other side.  I wish the best for Takakeisho but I personally still need another basho to see if he can consistently challenge the higher-ranked guys and the jury is still out. Takakeisho's style of sumo hasn't been that effective against the three rikishis I mentioned. I think this was probably what was going through the committee members' minds.   And I think the quick loss to Goeido on the last day of the Hatsu Basho kind of sealed the deal.

Also, I think Takakeisho's record is actually 2/5 against the Yokozunas in the past 3 bashos and one of his victories was against Kisenosato in November where he went 0-5 and dropped out of the tournament. Therefore, I wouldn't put that much weight on that stat.  Also, yes Takakeisho has dominated Tochinoshin and Tamawashi, in the last three tournaments, going 5 and 0 against them. But given that Tochinoshin hasn't been that genki in the recent past because of injuries, the statistic doesn't seem as impressive as it looks and it's still hard to see how the 5 and 0 against these two outweigh the 1 and 8 against Mitakeumi, Takayasu, and Goeido over the same time period.  

 

Edited by wys
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First of all, congratulations to Tamawashi. I never thought the 'oshiwashi' guy would win a yusho. Congratulations also on the birth of his baby boy.

As for Takakeisho, even though I don't like his sumo, I think he should have been promoted. As someone else stated, maybe the former heya he was in had something to do with it. :-D

When it comes to Hakuho, I am glad he withdrew from the tournament. He had no chance of winning the yusho. I was amazed he made it through 10 days without losing. The 'great yokozuna' Onokuni had the nerve to criticize him for withdrawing. The seven win eight loss yokozuna. (Sigh...)

Congratulations to Hoshoryu for his 5-2 record. I think he will be in the top 15 Makushita ranks next basho.

One more congratulations to Tokuda. He managed a 4-3 in his first tournament in Makushita. He should be the top ranked rikishi in Musashigawa heya next tournament. :-)

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I started following sumo around the time Tamawashi reached and held sekiwake for some time, he was one of my favourites but as time passed i thought "oh well, this one's not gonna be much with only oshizumo". It was the same i thought of Takakeisho at first but with him it was the opposite, he won me over time. They both are doing great with a limited style of fighting.

Now i'm thinking about Abi ...

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i have to agree with the elders this time, imo it was the right call. Many reasons...But to me his style is the main thing...pushpushpull pushpushpull... It's being incredibly effective lately, and Sato does it beautifully...But it's enought to keep the Ozeki ranking in long terms? To make a tsuna run? He may have Yokozuna's carrer's start's numbers, b b but if his aite can evoid his low tachiai and that armpit/tits push and give him no space...Can he keep this consistency? I don't know...Why rush things anyway?

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3 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

Hakuho et al have always taken it easy on him in their bouts. They all agreed that “Since we’re winning all the yusho, you can have the prize for attendance.”  

#themongolianconspiracy

Seriously, his health might be the reason he won this yusho, besides his great form, of course.

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