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Hatsu Basho 2019 Discussion [SPOILERS]

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26 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Mr Picky says "You switched the Y and J there."

Haha. I actually went back and edited the numbers as I put them the wrong way around, but overlooked the J and Y. 

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4 minutes ago, Rocks said:

Just to drive the final nail into this idea Takakeisho will not be promoted to ozeki with Hakuho going kyujo Takakeisho is now assured of not only beating the Yokozuna but getting at least a jun yusho and having beat the yusho winner with a shot of back to back yushos. 

Hakuho is out? Wow. What a basho this is turning out to be. Tamawashi has the yusho in his hands and there is nothing Takakeisho can do about it, since they’ve already faced each other.

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3 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

Hakuho is out? Wow. What a basho this is turning out to be. Tamawashi has the yusho in his hands and there is nothing Takakeisho can do about it, since they’ve already faced each other.

True, and I expect him to grab it. But the pressure just got ramped up a notch with Hakuho pulling out. I'm thinking they give Tamawashi kaisei on Day 15 which would leave Endo for Takayasu. 

Edited by Rocks

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14 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

Chiyotaikai is the standard clapback anytime anyone complains of a rikishi being one-dimensional.  Which begs the question, if that were enough, why haven't there more successful ozeki with only one gameplan?  Let's look at Abi and Onosho (injury notwithstanding), both of whom got off to roaring starts when they entered makuuchi.  Now Abi has slipped down the rankings since everyone has figured him out and Onosho still overcommits when charging forward and gets his face slapped into the dirt time and again... Even Ura was getting predictable in makuuchi after the initial surprise to his opponents wore off.  It's ok when you're only in the lower ranks - the odds of you facing the same opponent in successive basho are slim, especially if you yusho your way out of there.  But in makuuchi you're against the same guys every time, so a signature technique will indubitably have a shelf-life, unless you have some other kind of physical or tactical advantage, which IMHO, Takakeisho just doesn't have.  Chiyotaikai was taller and lighter.  Apples and oranges.  

 

14 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

I’d argue that Kotoshogiku is an example of a (fairly) successful Ozeki with one gameplan: the gaburi-yori. He kept the rank for 32 basho and won a yusho by rubbing his belly on other men.

Kisenosato also had a standard game plan with not that much to back it up if it failed. He won 68% of all bouts he participated in using just two very similar kimarite: oshidashi, and yorikiri . His fall back plan was tsukiotoshi at the tawara for the next 7%. He was extremely good at what he did but I would argue that his over-reliance on these power-sumo techniques meant he was ill equipped to adapt once he suffered the injury that meant they wouldn't be very effective anymore...

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So potentially both Ozeki could be gifted their 8th wins, eh? Talk about luck.

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1 minute ago, Eikokurai said:

So potentially both Ozeki could be gifted their 8th wins, eh? Talk about luck.

They deserve a bit  I think, Tocjinoshin too.

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These 3 Ozeki are in a tough position where the times are changing, the new generation is catching up to them quickly. 

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15 minutes ago, Joaoiyama said:

These 3 Ozeki are in a tough position where the times are changing, the new generation is catching up to them quickly. 

I don’t think Takayasu is past it just yet. Last year he managed three jun-yusho, so he’s been knocking on the door. He’s had a bad tournament but everyone does sometimes. At 28 he still has three years on Tochinoshin, four on Goeido and five on both Yokozuna. I wouldn’t say he’s part of the new generation but I also wouldn’t lump him with the old one. His last two years have been his strongest so arguably he’s at his peak. 

Edited by Eikokurai
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4 hours ago, Bumpkin said:

It would be unfair if Takakeisho gets 11 wins, and beats Hakuho, and is not promoted to Ozeki.

It is a battle of history and statistics.

From an historical perspective, it would be VERY difficult to promote Takakeisho to Ozeki after only one basho at Sekiwake. In the 6-basho era, it would be unprecedented. You have to go back to 1918 for a 1-basho Sekiwake to be promoted to Ozeki!

That said, Takakeisho's win pattern is clearly headed toward Yokozuna status. In this era, the average Yokozuna progress is 9 bashos at Maegashira; 3 at Komsubi; 6 at Sekiwake, and 13 at Ozeki. Takakeisho is at 9, 3, and 1. He might be on the career arc of Chiyonofuji (14-3-2-3) or Kitanoumi (8-2-2-3) and be skipping some of the bashos at Sekiwake and Ozeki. But only spending 1 basho at Sekiwake would basically be an acknowledgment that he could be a historically great wrestler.

 

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24 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

I don’t think Takayasu is past it just yet. Last year he managed three jun-yusho, so he’s been knocking on the door. He’s had a bad tournament but everyone does sometimes. At 28 he still has three years on Tochinoshin, four on Goeido and five on both Yokozuna. I wouldn’t say he’s part of the new generation but I also wouldn’t lump him with the old one. His last two years have been his strongest so arguably he’s at his peak. 

I didn't say the 3 ozeki were at the edge of their careers, i said that the new generation of rikishi is getting real good real quick and the 3 ozeki will have a handfull with them. Makuuchi is stacked and the weight will fall on Ozeki shoulders.

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I could see the reticence for promoting Takakeisho, since in his 9-6 result at Komusubi he failed to beat anyone of merit among the joi. But if he grabs another yusho here, I think that makes a strong case that there are no longer people of merit in the joi, and the NSK should crown him and give him truffles and coca cola for life. Or a year. Whichever comes first, really.  

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57 minutes ago, Joaoiyama said:

I didn't say the 3 ozeki were at the edge of their careers, i said that the new generation of rikishi is getting real good real quick and the 3 ozeki will have a handfull with them. Makuuchi is stacked and the weight will fall on Ozeki shoulders.

My reply was really just to say that of the three Ozeki I personally wouldn’t put one of them – Takayasu – in with the old generation. Arguably, he’s just the most senior of the new generation (he’s only two years older than Mitakeumi) and should be thought of not as part of the pack being caught up, but part of the pack doing the chasing.

Edited by Eikokurai
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2 hours ago, BroadMeadow said:

It is a battle of history and statistics.

From an historical perspective, it would be VERY difficult to promote Takakeisho to Ozeki after only one basho at Sekiwake. In the 6-basho era, it would be unprecedented. You have to go back to 1918 for a 1-basho Sekiwake to be promoted to Ozeki!

That said, Takakeisho's win pattern is clearly headed toward Yokozuna status. In this era, the average Yokozuna progress is 9 bashos at Maegashira; 3 at Komsubi; 6 at Sekiwake, and 13 at Ozeki. Takakeisho is at 9, 3, and 1. He might be on the career arc of Chiyonofuji (14-3-2-3) or Kitanoumi (8-2-2-3) and be skipping some of the bashos at Sekiwake and Ozeki. But only spending 1 basho at Sekiwake would basically be an acknowledgment that he could be a historically great wrestler.

 

On the flip side there have been a few cases of people promoted to Ozeki with only one basho at Komusubi and two at Sekiwake. Takakeisho has just done it the other way around, and given that the JSA considers the difference between the ranks so negligible as to pay them the same salary I don’t see why they can’t be treated the same for promotion purposes. Miyabiyama, for example, did one basho at komusubi, two at Sekiwake and then made Ozeki as recently as 2006. The great Taiho followed the same path in 1960.

 

To add, Sekiwake is the highest rank which can be achieved by kachikoshi alone, so naturally a rikishi will stall there more often, and for longer, than they do at Komusubi. It’s unusual to stay at Komusubi for long, either because you MK and go down or KK and become a Sekiwake. Takakeisho was unfortunate to only move from Kw to Ke after his 9-6 in September because there wasn’t room for him above. One could argue that his 13-2 at Komusubi in November was at a false rank and he was actually a Sekiwake in all but name, thanks to nothing more than banzuke congestion.

Edited by Eikokurai

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1 hour ago, Eikokurai said:

So potentially both Ozeki could be gifted their 8th wins, eh? Talk about luck.

Gōeidō 8 wins? Yes! Hurrah! Well done!

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1 hour ago, BroadMeadow said:

That said, Takakeisho's win pattern is clearly headed toward Yokozuna status. In this era, the average Yokozuna progress is 9 bashos at Maegashira; 3 at Komsubi; 6 at Sekiwake, and 13 at Ozeki. Takakeisho is at 9, 3, and 1. He might be on the career arc of Chiyonofuji (14-3-2-3) or Kitanoumi (8-2-2-3) and be skipping some of the bashos at Sekiwake and Ozeki. But only spending 1 basho at Sekiwake would basically be an acknowledgment that he could be a historically great wrestler.

Or maybe he's just advancing faster than average because he happens to be around at an extremely opportune moment in time that is seeing an entire generation of top-rankers fall apart nearly at once. Context beyond numbers, you know. Anointing him the next dai-yokozuna seems a wee bit premature.

Edited by Asashosakari
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27 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

My reply was really just to say that of the three Ozeki I personally wouldn’t put one of them – Takayasu – in with the old generation. Arguably, he’s just the most senior of the new generation (he’s only two years older than Mitakeumi) and should be thought of not as part of the pack being caught up, but part of the pack doing the chasing.

I feel that him being on the top ranks since 2011 makes him a veteran, also his maezumo in 2005 at the age of 15. Shodai is only 1 year younger than him and his maezumo was in 2014 at 23., that makes Takayasu old school in my opinion but he still has about 8 years of sumo left so he probably will meet with the next generation of maybe Hoshoryu and Roga.

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After reading many of the posts on here about Takakeisho's one-sided sumo, I feel like it might be a bit overblown. I know that I may be biased because he is my favorite rikishi, but I believe that Takakeisho has certain intangible qualities that are even more important than the ability to fight yotsu-zumo. If you watch his matches, the guy has heart, determination, and confidence. I would say these qualities more than compensate for his limited repertoire. I've never seen a match of his where he doesn't give a 110%. Compare that to a guy like Ichinojo, for instance, who is much larger and has the reach but doesn't have those same intangible qualities that Takakeisho has, and you see the difference in their ranking and career trajectory. What do you all think? 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, wys said:

After reading many of the posts on here about Takakeisho's one-sided sumo, I feel like it might be a bit overblown. I know that I may be biased because he is my favorite rikishi, but I believe that Takakeisho has certain intangible qualities that are even more important than the ability to fight yotsu-zumo. If you watch his matches, the guy has heart, determination, and confidence. I would say these qualities more than compensate for his limited repertoire. I've never seen a match of his where he doesn't give a 110%. Compare that to a guy like Ichinojo, for instance, who is much larger and has the reach but doesn't have those same intangible qualities that Takakeisho has, and you see the difference in their ranking and career trajectory. What do you all think?

 

Agreed.  Most Makuuchi rikishi has the similar heart: Chiyonokuni, Shohozan, Hokutofuji to name a few.    I think that's what made them to rise up to the Makuuchi division.  On the other side, yes,  Ichinojo is (at least appears to be) lacking that quality.  He made to Makuuchi on sheer size and strength.   If he wasn't built like Mt. Fuji, he wouldn't be in competitive sport as a pro.  

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https://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20190126/sum19012610460007-n1.html

A bit of info I was able to garner from this article, this will be the first time in the six basho era that all three yokozuna have not competed through to senshuraku in two consecutive basho. Also, Takayasu has finished all his sanyaku bouts, meaning that a maegashira will be in the musubino ichiban on senshuraku. This will be the first time since 1972 that this happened. The ozeki in the bout was Kiyokuni, the maegashira was the first Tochiazuma at M5W.

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14 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

https://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20190126/sum19012610460007-n1.html

A bit of info I was able to garner from this article, this will be the first time in the six basho era that all three yokozuna have not competed through to senshuraku in two consecutive basho. Also, Takayasu has finished all his sanyaku bouts, meaning that a maegashira will be in the musubino ichiban on senshuraku. This will be the first time since 1972 that this happened. The ozeki in the bout was Kiyokuni, the maegashira was the first Tochiazuma at M5W.

Was that the basho that Tochiazuma I won?

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Shimanoumi wraps up the juryo yusho.

Enho henkas his way to a KK.

Edited by Eikokurai

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What is Mitakeumi doing turning up today? He has nothing to fight for. His KK is secured and either there's no room for promotion or there is and it's his anyway.

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Just now, Eikokurai said:

What is Mitakeumi doing turning up today? He has nothing to fight for. His KK is secured and either there's no room for promotion or there is and it's his anyway.

Fighting spirit.

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Just now, Bumpkin said:

Fighting spirit.

Well worth aggravating an injury for ...

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